Upcomming Surge Changes!

[Lartnev]

Post by Sporkfire on the Official Forums

Admittedly, the Surge warping was the issue that caused us to look into Surge overall. Yes, we still have to resolve the core issue that caused the effect and that resolution is under development. To some extent, warping of some sort will always be a problem given the nature of the Internet and the predictive needs of MMO netcode. PlanetSide is not the only game to face this limitation. It may, however, be more obvious in PlanetSide, due to its unique gameplay and combat system among MMOG's.

But it also called up a design issue: given a perfect network with no warping, is it desired for functionality for this game to allow highly potent weapons to be used at super speeds? We don't feel it is, and there are plenty of gamers in PlanetSide who agree with that sentiment.

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/p.../038012-2.html

[Krinsath]

Hey! I was just about to do that!

Ah well....yeah, what the Spork said...although I feel odd taking orders from a hybrid eating utensil...

[Madcow]

Originally Posted by Krinsath

Sheesh...sad to see that basic inference skills are not taught in schools these days. Read my post, see where it mentions boomers? Be a really neat trick to use boomers WITHOUT combat engineering, wouldn't you say? This of course would presume that you put THOUGHT into the post I made before responding.

Ah, you're right. You answered one question. Kudos! I do enjoy your flame attempt, it's cute in the same way that declawed kittens attacking a scratching post is.

Originally Posted by Krinsath

So the post after you point out how stupid the people in the spawn room are, you suggest that hitting them even with a suppressor is a good idea? Welcome to the world of TK.

Wow, you're a really bad shot. TKing with a supressor is pretty stinking hard to do, especially while tracking a moving infiltrator. Or maybe your teammates just happen to be running parallel to the infiltrator but standing just in front of them the whole time? Bad luck, that.

So you get a dozen or so grief points, most likely shooting the nimrod about to get blown to smithereens. Hopefully you'll be able to sleep at night knowing how irresponsible you were.

Originally Posted by Krinsath

If you'd stop making the same mistakes over and over again, maybe it wouldn't be as funny. If someone is actively looking for me, chances are it's a whole degree worse than just walking around in a full on base assault (which this was in the middle of, by the way, amazing how crouch walking in hallways that are NOT the main ones keeps you out of the line of fire). Again, that presumes that you're thinking about things before you respond.

Oooooh, a keen wit on this one! He's able to recycle his recycled barbs. Yow.

If you are able to crouch walk hallways all the way to the spawn room, and not come across enemy fire, it's not an all-out base assault. You can crouch walk all the distance in the world and it won't matter if you get caught in the wrong hallway. Let's just say I don't exactly believe your story and we'll leave it at that, mmmkay? Either that or this was a one-off situation, which certainly happens but just isn't the norm. See, that's the danger in people forming opinions after very little playtime.

Originally Posted by Krinsath

I agree that it is a valuable thing for the main infantry to be able to get into the spawn room easier. My problem is that there's an exploit being abused to do it. If the infiltrator gets there through his own skill and gets things done that way, more power to him. Using a flaw in the netcode to produce it is *not* a valid tactic.

Even when I was on a crap system the only time I saw an infiltrator warp was during jumps. This is also the only time I've seen a surgile warp (well, that and sometimes stairs). Inclines? Nope. Regular flat ground? Nope. I guess I'm just the luckiest sob ever. You also conveniently forget the part where I say I don't use surge, but since that totally screws up your argument I don't really blame you.

Originally Posted by Krinsath

Not usually, they come in through the "rec room" run out of the left door. Come back the right, head out the back. Run straight left to right. Guess the infiltrators I face are a bit more intelligent than the ones you see.

Wow, I guess so. Amazing that you can actually follow their entire pattern and yet you're still too impotent to take them out. Well, that or maybe it just made your story sound better.

Originally Posted by Krinsath

You can kill all the people you jolly well please. Hell, you can even kill them exclusively with boomers and spitfires and knives for all I care. Just don't exploit bugs to do it. I'd say the same thing about someone who used a flaw in the textures or drivers to make hunting infiltrators easier. Using an exploit to get a kill or make a base hack easier or whatever the hell you're using it for is not a valid tactic. It's actually not terribly far removed from cheating, except I can't blame individuals for the slipshod response time from the Dev team.

There was this one time I sat on a riverbank and talked to a rock. For hours, I sat there and poured out my hopes and dreams to this rock (I named him Bill. Don't ask). At the end of the day I felt like that rock truly understood me. Then again, he was a pretty good listener.

[KIAsan]

Glad to see Spork further refining the change. I have always felt that surge was broken, in that it allowed one HA (JH) to remove any advantage the other HA's possesed. The JH is the most powerful weapon in CQB. MCGs & Lashers are given a standoff ability to counter this. The use of surge effectively nullified that counter, thus allowing the JH to be the most powerful in all circumstances. That is out of balance, and judging Sporks comments, another reason for the change.

The effect of the change on the JH is minimal if used as designed. Your there to kill in close quarters. Other weapons are designed to suppress/defend against enemies at range. The JH just needs to wait until the MCG/Lasher is within his range to win. The MCG/Lasher needs to win at range or use other weapons to suppress/defend before they get to CQB. However, the JH user still retains a potent game feature that gives him the upper hand, 3rd person view. With it, he can safely wait around a corner for a MCG/Lasher to come into range, then kill them by surprise. As to boomer runs, those will still be effecitve without surge.

[Queensidecastle]

Rexo is hardly "super speed" and Infiltrators having "potent weapons"? rofl Of course this comes from the makers of such winners as Lasher 2.0 and Lasher 3.0 so oh well

I have agreed since the beginning that Agile/Standard and surge was a problem but a wholesale nerf to the Surge implant is bullshit and trying to spin it any other way is a mistake. Attempting to pretend at this juncture that Surge was never meant to be used for offense is just comical. Just be honest and say you cant fix the code or that you want to change the game after its been out a year and dont really give a shit what anyone thinks, but at least dont insult our intelligence in the process heh

I am sure you have all read this quote from Smokejumper by now: BTW...to be official...we don't consider the "Surge+HA+Agile" to be an "exploit". We consider it to be clever use of existing game rules

Sure they can change thier minds I suppose, but dont even try to suggest that Surge was never meant for offense or that using surge on offense is an exploit. Warping on purpose is the exploit and you cant do it at will w/out jumping

[Lartnev]

Get over it. For goodness sake. The devs aren't trying to screw you over personally, they believe this is a required change and are perfectly within their rights to make that change.

Oh, I believe the boomer is a very potent weapon in the right hands, so is the AMP if you catch someone off guard. Oh, and if they drop a HE mine behind a MAX, that's definatly a potent weapon.

[Krinsath]

Originally Posted by Madcow

Ah, you're right. You answered one question. Kudos! I do enjoy your flame attempt, it's cute in the same way that declawed kittens attacking a scratching post is.

I was not attempting to flame you, I was drawing attention to you posing a question with an obvious answer after you berate me for not reading a post. Funny thing about people who call others hypocrites, they tend to be one as well (and yes, that is said tongue in cheek )

Originally Posted by Madcow

If you are able to crouch walk hallways all the way to the spawn room, and not come across enemy fire, it's not an all-out base assault. You can crouch walk all the distance in the world and it won't matter if you get caught in the wrong hallway. Let's just say I don't exactly believe your story and we'll leave it at that, mmmkay? Either that or this was a one-off situation, which certainly happens but just isn't the norm. See, that's the danger in people forming opinions after very little playtime.

Do my infils get as much play as my other characters? No, but then again I have no VS cloakers, so I'm also eagerly waiting for 2.6 when they damned overdue infil buffs go in. Appears the Devs are at the "crap we should have done back in November" list.

Originally Posted by Madcow

Even when I was on a crap system the only time I saw an infiltrator warp was during jumps. This is also the only time I've seen a surgile warp (well, that and sometimes stairs). Inclines? Nope. Regular flat ground? Nope. I guess I'm just the luckiest sob ever. You also conveniently forget the part where I say I don't use surge, but since that totally screws up your argument I don't really blame you.

If you sneak into a spawn room...or even run into one on the straight and narrow, more power to you. As I've said NUMEROUS times now, my issue is not with people like you who use skill (and a bit of luck, as you'll admit) to get in a position to wreak havoc. That's what the infiltrator is FOR...harassment. The problem is that surge allows people to warp and become for all intents and purposes, invulnerable. THOSE are the ones I have problems with, just like I have problems with EVERYONE who abuses exploits.

The warping is VERY noticeable on inclines, especially in large battles (where boomer runs on the spawn room happen to be an effective tactic). My system exceeds the "recommended" specs by a decent margin. The Devs have more or less admitted that it is a rather large problem, and according to Spork, the current form of Surge no longer fits in with what they want PS to do. Any further discussion is really moot if they've gone so far as to get it to QA.

And, as a side note, if you don't use surge, why the hell are you bitching in this thread? The changes discussed here affect you not at all then.

Originally Posted by Madcow

Wow, I guess so. Amazing that you can actually follow their entire pattern and yet you're still too impotent to take them out. Well, that or maybe it just made your story sound better.

Yes, as you point out, it's amazing what you can see from the spawn tubes. And yes, I spammed the "Cloaked Enemy Detected" and you're right, the people in a spawn room are idiots. Me? I was waiting for my Darklight to kick in so I could at least get a decent shot in on him. I see those outlines quite well, to the point that Darklight is really only needed if he's stationary (fact that he was NC helped too, those faceplates stick out). Seeing a blur of an outline really isn't enough to go on when you have a spawn room packed full of friendlies.

Of course, there are probably cloakers that have followed me for hours and laughed their asses off that I never noticed them, so the eyesight thing is relative I suppose.

Originally Posted by Madcow

There was this one time I sat on a riverbank and talked to a rock. For hours, I sat there and poured out my hopes and dreams to this rock (I named him Bill. Don't ask). At the end of the day I felt like that rock truly understood me. Then again, he was a pretty good listener.

Oooooooooooook...was this rock shaped like a beamer, by any chance?

[Madcow]

Krinsath is officially on my good people list. This has been fun.

Although I still might knife him.

[oddfish]

The only thing i'm going to say is this. Removing the surge+gun capability is a very sensible move. It will work.

Those who say that warping is not a problem, or that if one cannot hit some guy in surge who's zapping about the screen disappearing and reappearing like Harry frickin' Houdini is a lousy FPS player and just sucks and needs to quit being such a n00b, need to realize a few things.

The fact is, that you can't tell me that exploiting an obvious flaw with the game is okay and should be recognized as an okay way to play. Now, Oxo is saying that there are other ways to go about fixing the problem, but what he's not realizing is that the devs have probably looked at many different ways to fix the problem and have decided that this is the most efficient and most applicable one. It's broad and effects all of the PS players.

The argument that surging and gunning is part of the game and shouldn't be nerfed just because a few people are bitching is not a valid one to the slightest degree. Surgiles cause warping, warping is a glitch, not a tactic. No one on any battlefield in PS should have to work around a glitch. If warping did not happen, i would see no need to fix the surgile problem, but it does. TR Maxes who have to deal with surgiles zipping up and devastatoring them into oblivion would have nothing to bitch about if they could see the surgiles the whole time they made their skittering little way up to their suits. But when the guys 50 meters away, then 7 and you didn't see him take a single step then there's a problem.

Tactics in a game should be based on the options the game has provided, not a lack of server strength has provided. Warping is not a tactic, and since surgiles running around with guns blazing is causing the warping then it is clear that surge gunning is not a viable tactic. There might as well be a fukking wall hack in this game. Anyways, I know Oxo or some Surgeopath will flame the hell out of me for this, or try to rebut with some type of pro-surgile argument but I'm to the point where I'm done listening. The fact that this thread is this long to begin with is ridiculous.

There was a problem, the devs fixed it the best they could. If you don't like it, you can take your 13 a month and cram it up your ass, cuz your complaints are unfounded and unwelcome if all they are are the same "waaaaaaaaa, i want to be able to QUAKE THREE everyone and i CAN'T ANYMORE," bullshit i've been reading so far. I've been playing for a while now and I've come across numerous players who use this surgile tactic. It reminded me of the ridiculous zapping around of Quake 3 deathmatches of old and it was driving me insane. PlanetSide is NOT Quake 3 and should't resemble it in any way. To those who think that applying UT and Quake tactics to a game like this, all I have to say is: for shame..

[sPooT]

Best change EVAR

I think the "warping" is just a side effect of Planetside's low bandwidth netcode, there just aren't enough packets to show proper smooth movement at such high playerspeeds. You just don't notice it normally because vehicle (with even higher speeds) movement is far more predictable than people jumping around on towerstairs.

At least, that's what I've always thought Anyways, I don't think surge was ever meant to be truly offensive, and they're finally fixing it.

[Shelak]

My issue with cloakers doing boomer runs at the spawn room is the small step on the doors that makes them warp when they go by one.

They warp when they get in and they warp when they get out.

[Lartnev]

I think the "warping" is just a side effect of Planetside's low bandwidth netcode, there just aren't enough packets to show proper smooth movement at such high playerspeeds. You just don't notice it normally because vehicle (with even higher speeds) movement is far more predictable than people jumping around on towerstairs.

Close enough

[Queensidecastle]

Now, Oxo is saying that there are other ways to go about fixing the problem, but what he's not realizing is that the devs have probably looked at many different ways to fix the problem and have decided that this is the most efficient and most applicable one. It's broad and effects all of the PS players.

See, I just dont believe that at all. I have a BR 14 Vanu on the test server and have been active before every patch for months. These are the same people that released Lasher 2.0, Lasher 3.0 and the Interlink facility benifits that instantly destroyed cloaking. Each one of these I played on the test server going "WTF No way this is going to make it off Test" and in each case it actually did go live. Lasher 2.0 for example was just absurd against MAXs not counting its other problems. I could see that within 30 min of play and that was on the public test server. Not only did this make it out of Development, it made it to the public test. Not only did it make it to Test, it actually went live. In each of these cases we have had to live with the results for months.

I realize the Devs are human and make mistakes. That is why I am being so vocal about this because it is just going to be another mistake.

[Krinsath]

Originally Posted by Queensidecastle

See, I just dont believe that at all. I have a BR 14 Vanu on the test server and have been active before every patch for months. These are the same people that released Lasher 2.0, Lasher 3.0 and the Interlink facility benifits that instantly destroyed cloaking. Each one of these I played on the test server going "WTF No way this is going to make it off Test" and in each case it actually did go live. Lasher 2.0 for example was just absurd against MAXs not counting its other problems. I could see that within 30 min of play and that was on the public test server. Not only did this make it out of Development, it made it to the public test. Not only did it make it to Test, it actually went live. In each of these cases we have had to live with the results for months.

I realize the Devs are human and make mistakes. That is why I am being so vocal about this because it is just going to be another mistake.

Is it the optimal solution? No...the optimal solution would be to fix the warping issues so that there is some merit to the "you just need to change your tactics" argument that Surgiles love (yes, that does imply that this argument currently has no merit due to bugs).

However, the netcode in regards to surge and jumping/inclines is broken. There is no arguing that point as there have been numerous cases of it happening, including videos being made. Even you concede that it is possible to induce warping, and the majority of people here know it is possible to do it accidentally when elevation changes are involved, something that gets worse as the size of battles increase.

Their options are do nothing, and leave a plainly visible black eye on PS to scare away the few new players that come to this game or they can try and put in a fix that impacts people as little as possible.

Fact is that the solution they are putting in is as gentle as it can be to have the intended affect. Every other suggestion I've seen has more negative impacts on those who want to use it as the Devs evidently feel it should be used and still does not remedy the abuse of the bug. A warper now has to turn surge off before he can draw a weapon, and I have a feeling that the "auto-surge off" wasn't put in so that in the time between turning surge off and drawing a weapon, the game will have caught up enough to put the character where he belongs. Can warping still be abused to get an upper-hand? Yes...but not nearly on the scale that it can be currently.

Again, if the Devs were looking for the quick fix, they'd simply say "Surge is broken...we'll put it back in when it's fixed" and then just take it out entirely. The fact that they have picked one that nerfs mainly the people who's strategy in game abused it in the first place says that they have indeed put thought into it. Until it's on the Test Server though, we won't know what it's real impact will be.

That's the other difference, on all the other ones you started complaining about where the Devs screwed up, you started complaining when it made it to the Test Server...you started the moment this was announced, so the Devs must be doing the right thing.

[Lartnev]

It's not a case of the netcode being broken as such, it's just it's not really good at predicting surge users, and you can't really blame anyone for that.