MAX Balance - Page 4

Peacemaker · 2011-03-15, 04:14 AM

Actually good sir you just about as wrong as you can be.

1. Rockets SUCK vs infantry. 2 Misses is all it takes and that rexo will still be walkin.
2. No other Anti vehicle weapon in the game is as effective at killing the target as AA weapons are.
3. Infantry caught in the open vs any sort of vehicle should be dead. Sorry that the reaver caught you all alone in the middle of a god damn field. But you should be dead.

Whys everyone hate on aircraft that kill them? Because *GASP* its a vehicle? I keep hearing how people bitch cause they get killed by a reaver even though they have their *insert AV weapon here*. WHEN is the last time that you went toe to toe with a lighting, sky guard, assault buggy, heavy tank, deli... what ever the hell else BY YOUR SELF and lived?

Just because it kills you doesn't mean its over powered. Its SUPPOSED TO. If you dont want to get killed by reavers get some AA in your squad. The argument for a Nerf on AA or a way to counter lock ons is that THERE IS NO WAY TO COUNTER THEM. If you get locked in a reaver and your in a bad spot you die. If you dont have 100% health and 100% shields you die. If you do manage to live some asshat in a mossie might hit you with 3 bullets and you.... *GASP* die. Being a dedicated pilot in this game gets you killed more often than anything else other than being a ground pounder in the middle of a base siege.

They are useful and effective only when the battle is outside the base, when there isn't OMG WTF AA present, when there isnt OMG WTF enemy air, when there isnt OMG WTF AV infantry. Otherwise you have to do hit and run attacks. There is no counter for AA in the game other than get lucky that the client side hit detection didnt screw you over. On the flip side theres a HUGE list of counters to aircraft. All pilots want is a way to counter the client side hit detection suckness of diving behind a hill and still getting hit by this magic missile that still tracks you an SOI and a half away.

You quit YOUR bitching and everyone get the fuck back on topic. This isnt about aircraft. Its about the fact that the MAX balance in this game is screwed up.

Jesus, you'd think this is the OFs from beta days.

Also, on the range thing. Yes the DC has more range, but what good is range if you can only hit something once or twice before it ducks behind cover, and then if your unlucky enough it pulls out a deci or AV weapon and pwns you. AI maxs dont work at long range. They get raped. They only work in ranges about the distance of half a base wall. Even then the COF on the DC sucks. The Quasar does even better. My point still stands. The DC gets a DPS buff yet still does not do the best DPS. Why is this flawed? Because the DC special ability still does not bring it on par with the MAX that has a shield on top of its awsome DPS. And no, the scat max can do some damage at range too. One advantage and 2 Disadvantages does not = two advantages and one disadvantage. AI maxs work by doing so much damage that the enemy dies before he has time to react enough to kill you. Thats why you dont see AI max's running through fields shooting infantry. You see them in bases, in forests, and in towers. Range is not an advantage when the advantage isnt enough to let you kill the enemy before he finds cover.

Jamini · 2011-03-15, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Actually good sir you just about as wrong as you can be.

1. Rockets SUCK vs infantry. 2 Misses is all it takes and that rexo will still be walkin.

-With no armor, no stamina, and no hope for escape. 1s later, once you reload, he's dead. If he's lucky he might put a single decimator up your tailpipe. Big whoop.

2. No other Anti vehicle weapon in the game is as effective at killing the target as AA weapons are.

-Then why does it take multiple AA maxes to deny airspace to enemy air? Oh right, because reavers outdamge them. Also reavers > AA for killing their intended target (light vehicles). Compared to av platforms, AA eqiupment does not measure up. At all.

3. Infantry caught in the open vs any sort of vehicle should be dead. Sorry that the reaver caught you all alone in the middle of a god damn field. But you should be dead.

-What about in the middle of my base? Surrounded by friendlies? Oh wait, he can swoop in, nab a kill, then afterburn off laughing.

Whys everyone hate on aircraft that kill them? Because *GASP* its a vehicle? I keep hearing how people bitch cause they get killed by a reaver even though they have their *insert AV weapon here*. WHEN is the last time that you went toe to toe with a lighting, sky guard, assault buggy, heavy tank, deli... what ever the hell else BY YOUR SELF and lived?

-Actually, I solo lightnings all the time as Maxes and Av. The rest of those are all multi-person vehicles. And yes, two infantry can kill a SG if they have proper cover. If you can get even a tiny hill between you and them, a single jammer nade = dead tank/SG/Enforcer.

Just because it kills you doesn't mean its over powered. Its SUPPOSED TO. If you dont want to get killed by reavers get some AA in your squad. The argument for a Nerf on AA or a way to counter lock ons is that THERE IS NO WAY TO COUNTER THEM. If you get locked in a reaver and your in a bad spot you die. If you dont have 100% health and 100% shields you die. If you do manage to live some asshat in a mossie might hit you with 3 bullets and you.... *GASP* die. Being a dedicated pilot in this game gets you killed more often than anything else other than being a ground pounder in the middle of a base siege.

-Except the fact that Reavers kill AA more effectivly than AA kills reavers.

They are useful and effective only when the battle is outside the base, when there isn't OMG WTF AA present, when there isnt OMG WTF enemy air, when there isnt OMG WTF AV infantry. Otherwise you have to do hit and run attacks. There is no counter for AA in the game other than get lucky that the client side hit detection didnt screw you over. On the flip side theres a HUGE list of counters to aircraft. All pilots want is a way to counter the client side hit detection suckness of diving behind a hill and still getting hit by this magic missile that still tracks you an SOI and a half away.

-No. There isn't a huge amount of counters to aircraft.

You have maxes, skyguards, and turrets. That's it. And if you don't have MORE AA than the enemy have air, then your gonna end up losing that AA fast.

You quit YOUR bitching and everyone get the fuck back on topic. This isnt about aircraft. Its about the fact that the MAX balance in this game is screwed up.

-Except it's not. If air is fine, maxes are fine. Especially if you consider that maxes have FAR FAR FAR more counters than air do.

Jesus, you'd think this is the OFs from beta days.

Also, on the range thing. Yes the DC has more range, but what good is range if you can only hit something once or twice before it ducks behind cover, and then if your unlucky enough it pulls out a deci or AV weapon and pwns you. AI maxs dont work at long range. They get raped. They only work in ranges about the distance of half a base wall. Even then the COF on the DC sucks. The Quasar does even better. My point still stands. The DC gets a DPS buff yet still does not do the best DPS. Why is this flawed? Because the DC special ability still does not bring it on par with the MAX that has a shield on top of its awsome DPS. And no, the scat max can do some damage at range too. One advantage and 2 Disadvantages does not = two advantages and one disadvantage. AI maxs work by doing so much damage that the enemy dies before he has time to react enough to kill you. Thats why you dont see AI max's running through fields shooting infantry. You see them in bases, in forests, and in towers. Range is not an advantage when the advantage isnt enough to let you kill the enemy before he finds cover.

-That's why you set up in a hallway, with people behind and to your side. Or if you are sneaky, get behind them and lock down. Quite frankly, I find the TR maxes to be the most fun to play as well as likely the best. NC maxes have serious range issues (and the falcon does not fill it's intended role. It's a max killer and that's it.), and VS maxes are really only popular because the lasher isn't the best HA in the world.

Responses in RED.

I'd also like to mention that there are VAST numbers of people who have complained of air in the past. Many of them quit. I wouldn't be surprised if Air (specifically, the reaver) has caused more people to leave this game than biffers and gal gunships combined.

Effective · 2011-03-15, 09:02 AM

Lol at air having less counters then max units do.

Cerb turrets, Buffed AA turrets, Skyguards, any competent heavy vehicle gunner (with the exception of vehicles that fire slow moving projectiles), AA max, and other aircraft.

Max units have decimators, which isn't very good at anti-max, considering EVERY SINGLE MAX IN THE GAME (yes including AA maxs), has a faster TTK then a rexo with a decimator. And then you have AV maxs, which suck as a counter to maxs since in order to use it in a fashion to kill multiple max units you have to keep your distance from them so you dont suicide, but unfortunately that means exposing yourself in a fashion so that you're decimator/esav bait.

That being said, I do believe aircraft need a nerf, and it's a very simple nerf to. Aircraft can no longer fire below "x" speed, this could change from vehicle to vehicle, but it cuts out a pretty substantial portion of the complaints about aircraft, and then you can even remove cerb turrets and even buffed AA turrets from the game. (also nerf the reaver armor back to it's origional value).

Raymac · 2011-03-15, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Effective

That being said, I do believe aircraft need a nerf, and it's a very simple nerf to. Aircraft can no longer fire below "x" speed, this could change from vehicle to vehicle, but it cuts out a pretty substantial portion of the complaints about aircraft, and then you can even remove cerb turrets and even buffed AA turrets from the game. (also nerf the reaver armor back to it's origional value).

I've thought about this nerf, and I don't like it for a few reasons.
1) It's not logical. Why an engineer would design a war vehicle that way just would make zero sense.
2) So now I can't track slow moving vehicles like an AMS or Flail? That just doesn't make any sense either.
3) Most importantly, hovering over a battlefield is aleady a death sentence. Try hovering over an active battlefield and just see how long you live. If there is no AA or AV in the area, then sure you can get away with it, but if there is no AA or AV, then shame on your enemy. The only time you can safely hover is when your empire has already taken the enemy's courtyard and you are camping a doorway, just like the tanks do. Thats it. Any other time you hover, you cannot escape AA.

I think a better nerf would be to severly gimp the low end acceleration. Right now, I can hit the afterburners from a dead stop and be across as SOI faster than you can say "PS:N Beta". This then would naturally encourage pilots to keep their speed up, without doing some over the top illogical nerf where they can't fire and are just a hovering doorstop.

Peacemaker · 2011-03-15, 03:11 PM

Ill say it again, 90% of this thread is about air. Get back on track.

Honestly I feel the AV max's in this game are horribly flawed. They are (Like someone else has already pointed out) are only useful at anti MAX. The exception is the Pounder MAX and it has one reason for being a better AV platform than the rest, Range, it can sit a long distance off and fire and hit because it has range. The Sparrow and Comet also have decent range, but the projectile speed is too slow to reliably hit vehicles anywhere but close range. This limits out door use and they become indoor Anti MAX suits. Pounder is also half decent at suppressing infantry but I feel its a decently balanced AV MAX and the other two should be brought to its level.

Now, this brings us back to the AI maxs. "Setting up" in a DC max just gets you killed faster. Honestly the things feel like that have an even bigger hit box than the quasar for sure, and the scat max probably has a large hit box as well. Its too easy for infantry to side strafe out from behind cover and pump decis into them. I suppose if they eliminated that it would be much better... but the range vs DPS issue still remains.

AI MAXs that have range have a useless advantage. They are too slow, and too fat and easy of targets for ESAV to be useful outside of bases. Inside bases they become meat grinding machines like they should be. The issue arises here. Inside of bases the range advantage is lost. You cant shoot long distance because there is hardly none, and when there is a long hallway, its just an invitation for people to throw deci's down it. If you cant use the range advantage you have, you don't have an advantage.

The DC max gets a buff to its DPS but still does not do the best DPS at closer ranges. It should because thats what its SPECIAL ABILITY does. If its special ability still does not bring it on par or best the scat max which does not need a special ability to do so then its unbalanced. The Scat still has its shield. The DC max has no shield and needs to use its Spec Abil to come even close and even then for just a few moments. Your argument has been shot down by the same logic three times. If you cant use the range advantage you have then you DONT HAVE AN ADVANTAGE. If at close range you use your DPS buff and still don't do the best DPS, you still are at a disadvantage. The system is broken right there.

I really think the problems with the AI and AV max's are they are nearly useless outside. AA max's on the other hand can be far away from a fight and protected by range, cover, or friendlies, they also have very good range.

Raymac · 2011-03-15, 03:24 PM

Bah, you're right Peace. I was way off topic on my last post. I'm sorry, I hate when I let myself get off on tangents.

Anyways, you make some great points about Maxes in general. I don't think you are giving the TR Maxes' defensive abilities enough credit, but as far as special abilities go, TR's are my least favorite. The NC shield is not as effective as you make it out to be especially since you can't fire with it up. It's great for max crashes though because it helps you get from point A to point B, but it doesn't hold up very long once you start fighting.

Overall, I feel the Maxes across the empires are balanced enough, but I do hope they can figure out a new special ability for the TR maxes for PS:N thats as sexy as the shield or jump jets.

Effective · 2011-03-15, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

Air

Balance should not be in favor of real life logic I'm afraid, there are probably better ideas then mine, I won't be petty and deny that. But my idea would work as it solves quite a large portion of the complaints related to aircraft (as they are highly unbalanced in their current form, as shown by SOE's constant stacking of more and more forms of AA to the game). You could just remove hovering aircraft from the game period, and have the reaver work like an attack helicopter (as seems might be the case going off the PS:N model) at the cost of a much lower afterburn/cruise speed.

As for balance between max units as they are right now, each is effective in it's own way.

All AI max units are good at killing infantry, unfortunately the scatmax is far superior then the other 2.

AV maxs
The comet is best at killing other max units, it's slow projectiles really prevent from being a decent anti-vehicle platform though.
The falcon is has the best AI (which is strange for a Anti-vehicle max)
The pounder is the best actual anti-vehicle max, due to the large clip size and accuracy of the rounds as long as you can lead the shots.

AA
The starfire is best all-around in my opinion, and the only AA max that has a realistic chance of going toe-to-toe with the current reaver
The burster is amazing at killing smaller unsuspecting aircraft that have weaker armor due to the no lock-on and the fast TTK.
The sparrow is hands down the worst AA max in the game, it's true that it's probably the most annoying, but it's extremely slow ROF really prevents it from being a real threat to anything but slow moving aircraft like the liberator, I actually remember when my outfit had 10 of us all in mosquitos, we found this sparrow on top of the hill, but instead of running (like we might have for a burster or starfire) we just all mowed him down before he could get enough rounds off to kill someone

Raymac · 2011-03-15, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Effective

All AI max units are good at killing infantry, unfortunately the scatmax is far superior then the other 2.

I more or less agree with your assessment of the AA and AV maxes, although I'd like to think my Sparrow max is a little more effective than you say. I think the fire and forget missile is good at chasing air away.

For AI though, I think it's a big stretch to say the scatmax is "far superior". Sure the scatmax is fantastic at killing infantry...if you are face to face. Anything beyond point blank range, and the scatmax loses its effectiveness drastically. So keeping yourself that close to the enemy also makes you extremely vulnerable. So I think the scatmax is the best at point blank range, but the VS is probably the best all around AI max, and the TR is right there also.

Basically, the balance between the AI maxes is fine. If you really think the scatmax is that powerful, try playing with it a bit more and see its limitations. If they are standing on your toes, you will melt their face, but if they take 2 steps backwards, you are wishing you had a different max.

Effective · 2011-03-15, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

If you really think the scatmax is that powerful, try playing with it a bit more and see its limitations. If they are standing on your toes, you will melt their face, but if they take 2 steps backwards, you are wishing you had a different max.

I have, my br32 NC (I first certed it at br23 and kept it certed until 32) had it certed for a substantial amount of time when me an and a outfit mate we're both Rexo, MA, Adv. med, scatmax, plus a couple of other things. Using that particular cert combo, we were fairly unstoppable against anything but extremely high numbers (like 5-1). We actually stomped out a double gal drop on the VS using scatmax, sweeper, and a couple of boomers.

The scatmax is just a beast, it has the fastest TTK (in close quarters sure, but that's where 90% of the fighting indoors takes place, as any smart NC will avoid a ranged fight in the first place), on top of the shield which allows them to eat a full decimator, or close the distance with auto run + shield so the max doesn't take any damage. I just find it to be extremely poorly balanced, and it's a simple fix, give it either a sweeper with a similar ROF (and 1 choke, either 2nd or 3rd mode), or give it a gauss cannon with a large clip and slightly reduced accuracy compared to the gauss rifle

Baneblade · 2011-03-15, 05:00 PM

Hey now, some of us NC specialize at range fights.

The good ole Gauss/Phoenix combo.

Never gets old killing TR or VS that forgot we have ranged weapons too.

Raymac · 2011-03-15, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Effective

I have, my br32 NC (I first certed it at br23 and kept it certed until 32) had it certed for a substantial amount of time when me an and a outfit mate we're both Rexo, MA, Adv. med, scatmax, plus a couple of other things. Using that particular cert combo, we were fairly unstoppable against anything but extremely high numbers (like 5-1). We actually stomped out a double gal drop on the VS using scatmax, sweeper, and a couple of boomers.

The scatmax is just a beast, it has the fastest TTK (in close quarters sure, but that's where 90% of the fighting indoors takes place, as any smart NC will avoid a ranged fight in the first place), on top of the shield which allows them to eat a full decimator, or close the distance with auto run + shield so the max doesn't take any damage. I just find it to be extremely poorly balanced, and it's a simple fix, give it either a sweeper with a similar ROF (and 1 choke, either 2nd or 3rd mode), or give it a gauss cannon with a large clip and slightly reduced accuracy compared to the gauss rifle

Fair enough. I think you'd have to admit that even with a cert combo like that, you are in the minority if you are able to consistently come out on top on fights where you are outnumbered 3-1 or 4-1.

I fully agree that the scatmax is a beast in close quarters, I believe it has to be really really close quarters. Take a common example of a tower fight. The distance between the top of the stairs and the bottom is too far for a scatmax to be that effective. You have to be on one of the landings together to be at the range that makes it a beast.

I just don't think the scatmax should be judged only by it's effectiveness at 2 ft. and not take into consideration how it performs compared to other maxes at say 12 ft. (which is still CQB).

Effective · 2011-03-15, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

Fair enough. I think you'd have to admit that even with a cert combo like that, you are in the minority if you are able to consistently come out on top on fights where you are outnumbered 3-1 or 4-1.

I fully agree that the scatmax is a beast in close quarters, I believe it has to be really really close quarters. Take a common example of a tower fight. The distance between the top of the stairs and the bottom is too far for a scatmax to be that effective. You have to be on one of the landings together to be at the range that makes it a beast.

I just don't think the scatmax should be judged only by it's effectiveness at 2 ft. and not take into consideration how it performs compared to other maxes at say 12 ft. (which is still CQB).

At any rate, my fix would give the scatmax more range at the trade off of it being less annoying to fight against while trying to push against it while it's corner camping.

Raymac · 2011-03-15, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Effective

At any rate, my fix would give the scatmax more range at the trade off of it being less annoying to fight against while trying to push against it while it's corner camping.

Apart from nerfing the armor considerably, is there anything that can stop any empire max from corner humping? A max will always be more effective at close range due to it's armor and lack of mobility, so it will play to that strength.

Hopefully this will be worked out by limiting the number of cert points which will naturally limit the number of maxes. For me, I initially just had AA max, but with rexo being free, then a discounted uni-max cert, I might as well get them all.

Effective · 2011-03-15, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

Apart from nerfing the armor considerably, is there anything that can stop any empire max from corner humping?

They need to change base design so it's not as linear, it needs to be more open and spread out, so that you can come in from multiple angles and paths. One of PS's biggest problems is that combat indoors is incredibly crowded, due to choke points and narrow passage ways.

Raymac · 2011-03-15, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Effective

They need to change base design so it's not as linear, it needs to be more open and spread out, so that you can come in from multiple angles and paths. One of PS's biggest problems is that combat indoors is incredibly crowded, due to choke points and narrow passage ways.

YES!!! Yes 10,000 times. I'm all for having choke points, but the base design leaves alot to be desired. I'm really excited to see the new base layouts.