News: PlanetSide 2 Backstory Henry Briggs Part 2 - Page 2

Twheee · 2011-11-29, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by FastAndFree

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Or perhaps it is even simpler. A telepathic vision showed them where they would find some ancient technology which they then reverse-engineered. That would easily pass as "gifted to us"

I'll give you that. I really want them to give us something identifiable. I just worry about the sharp turn into religion territory they've gone is all. Very different feel from the PS1 incarnation, whereas the PS2 TR and NC are immediately recognizable. Joined up with VS because they were the militant transhumanist/scientists group that was fighting the other factions for their right to ~~plunder the grave~~ study the remains of an ancient civilization for tech that could screw with the fabric of reality, to hell with the naysayers. Now if I want to stay loyal to my faction, I have to light a bunch of incense and get on board with whatever Vanu has in mind for humanity.

Talek Krell · 2011-11-29, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Twheee

Joined up with VS because they were the militant transhumanist/scientists group that was fighting the other factions for their right to ~~plunder the grave~~ study the remains of an ancient civilization for tech that could screw with the fabric of reality, to hell with the naysayers. Now if I want to stay loyal to my faction, I have to light a bunch of incense and get on board with whatever Vanu has in mind for humanity.

This, 100%. TR and NC escaped this reboot relatively unscathed, but the VS get knocked down from being a unique and nuanced faction so that they can be the scary dogmatic mind-slaves of aliens? Frankly I'm dissapointed. And insulted.

Erendil · 2011-11-29, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by FastAndFree

Hmm. I'm sorry I can't hear you all over the sound of how good this drink tastes. Or something...

I'm still not convinced about the tech though. Perhaps Vanu just nudges them in the right direction? Clearly some kind of development still goes into the ancient tech - the Vanu Intel Briefing mentioned a Vanu Advanced Physics Lab. It's not like Vanu downloads a blueprint into their brains and they build it without even knowing how it works.

I think they still reverse-engineered ancient tech, except they didn't do it based on physically present ancient tech - they reverse-engineered it from telepathic fragments

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Or perhaps it is even simpler. A telepathic vision showed them where they would find some ancient technology which they then reverse-engineered. That would easily pass as "gifted to us"

Yes, I think that you are more on the right track. I don't think that statements like "Vanu gave them rebirthing technology" and such should be taken literally. I don't think that the VS are just regurgitating page-by-page engineering specs and service manuals on Ancient tech handed to them by Vanu like one might download them off an FTP site.

And remember everyone, all of these backstories are told from a limited third person view, meaning we are shown what's going on through the senses of the characters involved. We only know what they know, and what we read is tainted by their viewpoints, prejudices, etc.

I suspect that Biggs's encounter with the artifact opened up his mind, bringing him one step closer to understanding how the Universe works, and giving him just enough glimpses behind the Veil to expand his consciousness and allow him to look at his already-vast knowledge (he had 3 PhD's after all) in ways never before possible and taking his ideas in directions not thought of before. I believe it is in this way the Ancient tech was "revealed."

Vanu may have given him a telepathic-nudge here and there like some guru living alone on a mountain top expounding cryptic allegories and uttering colorful one-liners like he was reading from some Vanu fortune-cookie. You know, just enough to inspire Biggs and keep him on the path. But most of the knowledge Biggs uncovered came from Biggs himself and his new-found expanded consciousness.

And I suspect that a number of other VS who have touched one of the artifacts for the first time have experienced something similar, to varying degrees and in ways that are unique to each individual. This would explain why Willis Scott in the PS2 backstory Pt 2 had heard the voice of Vanu as well.

And it's easy to see how the exchange of ideas and thirst for knowledge and enlightenment experienced by the VS can ultimately lead to revolution by the followers of Vanu. There's a reason Dictators fear knowledge amongst the populace, and one only need to look at how big a driving force the Age of Enlightenment was on the American and French Revolutions, for example, to see how an influx of knowledge and new ideas can be lead to civil unrest and the desire to improve the status quo.

It seems to me that the founders of the Vanu Sovereignty were at the dawn of a another Age of Enlightenment.

Remember: Enlightenment, not Religion. And I for one have never been happier that I'll be playing VS!

Xyntech · 2011-11-29, 07:19 AM

I think they've walked the line pretty well. You can't have any one side being clearly and entirely in the right.

NC and TR see them as cultists, so there needs to be some legitimate reason to view them this way. That doesn't mean the VS are identical to a cult, they just walk a fine line.

NC aren't just civilian bombing terrorists and TR aren't just slave driving dictators, but that's how their enemies view them.

Hopefully the writers keep walking this line, giving reasonable justification for these scientists to continue down this path. As it stands now, I feel that all three sides have about equal justification for believing in their cause and rejecting the others.

Talek Krell · 2011-11-29, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Xyntech

Hopefully the writers keep walking this line, giving reasonable justification for these scientists to continue down this path.

"Because they've been brainwashed" is not a reasonable justification. Not when the VS are supposed to stand shoulder to shoulder with "we are willing to sacrifice freedom to preserve our safety" and "our individuality must be protected at all costs".

Briggs didn't "have his mind opened", this is not testimonial hour on the worship network.

Asperger's syndrome is a neurological condition characterized by overdevelopment of the parts on the brain responsible for rational thought at the expense of other areas, some of them associated with empathy. The fact that Briggs is able to begin functioning in social situations at a normal level means that he has been neurologically re-programmed. The fact that he just happens to immediately develop a passionate and deeply rooted subservience to an entity that he has never directly encountered might as well be a sign planted in his skull that says "I am being mind-controlled by an alien entity". When the guru on the mountaintop has a forked tongue and horns people still worthy of being called such ask questions beyond "How can I dedicate my existence to you today oh great lord and master?".

Originally Posted by Erendil

And remember everyone, all of these backstories are told from a limited third person view, meaning we are shown what's going on through the senses of the characters involved.

There are an exceptionally limited number of ways that this backstory can lead up to the scene just before the war begins, and none of them seem to treat the VS as a legitimate faction. We know that Briggs got brain drained. We know that Vanu is still revered and trusted, to the point that the VS will drop their peaceful schtick on someone else's say so of his say so.

1. "Vanu" is an entity or concept not actually involved in any of this. An imposter is manipulating the VS in his name. The VS are chumps.
2. Vanu is a malignant entity brainwashing the VS to accomplish it's goals. The VS are brainwashed chumps.
3. Vanu is a benevolent entity trying to help humanity. His methods of choice are neural re-association to make humanity worship him and genocide. Vanu is an incompetent. The VS are brainwashed chumps.

Canaris · 2011-11-29, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

1. "Vanu" is an entity or concept not actually involved in any of this. An imposter is manipulating the VS in his name. The VS are chumps.
2. Vanu is a malignant entity brainwashing the VS to accomplish it's goals. The VS are brainwashed chumps.
3. Vanu is a benevolent entity trying to help humanity. His methods of choice are neural re-association to make humanity worship him and genocide. Vanu is an incompetent. The VS are brainwashed chumps.

The TR have been saying this all along!

Xyntech · 2011-11-29, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

"Because they've been brainwashed" is not a reasonable justification. Not when the VS are supposed to stand shoulder to shoulder with "we are willing to sacrifice freedom to preserve our safety" and "our individuality must be protected at all costs".

Briggs didn't "have his mind opened", this is not testimonial hour on the worship network.

Asperger's syndrome is a neurological condition characterized by overdevelopment of the parts on the brain responsible for rational thought at the expense of other areas, some of them associated with empathy. The fact that Briggs is able to begin functioning in social situations at a normal level means that he has been neurologically re-programmed. The fact that he just happens to immediately develop a passionate and deeply rooted subservience to an entity that he has never directly encountered might as well be a sign planted in his skull that says "I am being mind-controlled by an alien entity". When the guru on the mountaintop has a forked tongue and horns people still worthy of being called such ask questions beyond "How can I dedicate my existence to you today oh great lord and master?".

There are an exceptionally limited number of ways that this backstory can lead up to the scene just before the war begins, and none of them seem to treat the VS as a legitimate faction. We know that Briggs got brain drained. We know that Vanu is still revered and trusted, to the point that the VS will drop their peaceful schtick on someone else's say so of his say so.

Seems to me that you are holding the VS to a different measuring stick than the others.

To the VS: We seek technological evolution and are bravely taking up arms to defend the true future of humanity. Vanu has given tangible proof in the form of technology and has earned our respect and trust.

To their enemies: They are all brain washed cultists that follow some sort of imaginary or malevolent leader, who will bring about the destruction of humanity and the known universe.

To the TR: We have provided the longest, most stable era of peace in human history and we are the only ones able to ensure that this era of peace continues. Nobody is above the rule of law, and the good of the global populace must always come above personal liberties.

To their enemies: Those guys are all the same, fascist pigs who sheepishly do whatever big brother tells them to. Their era of peace has been a mask for untold horrors, and their regime only continues to descend deeper into an abyss that will drag humanity back into the dark ages.

To the NC: All humans have a deep, inner desire for personal strength and self determination. Some have taken this to an extreme and imposed their will upon others, and it's our calling to destroy these oppressors and restore liberty to mankind.

To their enemies: Wealthy elitists, violent ruffians and all other manner of scum, these terrorists have no compunction against harming anyone and anything that looks like an easy target. Deluded by greed and lacking any real structure to their movement, the best case scenario is that humanity will become dominated by corporate monopolies, instead of governments. The worst case scenario is total anarchy and an end to civilization as we know it.

So all three sides could easily be looked at as being deluded into joining their movement. VS are thought to be brainwashed into service, TR are thought to be scared into service, and NC are thought to be tempted by greed and petty self interests into service.

Of course, none of those are the full picture. The TR truly have a leg to stand on, that they have historically proven to be a bastion of safety and stability. The NC really do have members who want to end all forms of oppression. The VS have technological proof that there is a higher power (not a mystical power, but a technological power) that humanity can strive to become more like.

1. "Vanu" is an entity or concept not actually involved in any of this. An imposter is manipulating the VS in his name. The VS are chumps.

1. If Vanu is an imposter, then it is an imposter with the same ability to invoke technological breakthroughs and speaks a language that the scientists of the VS are receptive to. I'm an atheist, but if some powerful alien entity came along, I may not follow it if I didn't like what it said and I certainly would be dubious about anything like it being all powerful, but I would have no problem accepting it as an advanced species that we could potentially learn a thing or two from.

2. Vanu is a malignant entity brainwashing the VS to accomplish it's goals. The VS are brainwashed chumps.

2. This is a legitimate concern, but if it were just a brainwashing scheme, don't you think a lot more of the scientists and intellectuals would have started catching on? I find it implausible that somehow the entirety of the TR and NC were able to resist the brainwashing, but all of the intelligentsia of the VS fell right into it. At the very least, there was enough of a convincing argument to join the VS prior to any "brainwashing" happening, so they were hardly deluded into joining.

3. Vanu is a benevolent entity trying to help humanity. His methods of choice are neural re-association to make humanity worship him and genocide. Vanu is an incompetent. The VS are brainwashed chumps.

3. Vanu may not be benevolent, but he may not be malevolent either. As for his methods, I haven't seen anything in the story yet that indicates that Briggs has lost his own personal will. Become influenced by alien technology, sure, but brain patterns fall into the domain of transhumanism, so unless it's totally rewriting his mind and forcing him to do things he would otherwise think unconscionable, I'd say it falls less into the category of brainwashing and more into the category of assisted evolution. As for genocide, the VS seem the least genocidal of the lot:

The TR would hang the entire NC and VS as traitors, and the NC would behead the TR and VS as overthrown oppressors. The VS are about the only ones who I could plausibly see giving amnesty after the war. Remember that the VS joined the fight only after war erupted between the other two. For the VS, this is much more an act of defense for Auraxis than an aggressive push to claim, or hold on to, military power. At the very least that's how it was when the VS went into the fight.

Vanu is no more incompetent than the TR leadership who failed so miserably to hold on to 1000 years of power, or the NC leadership who managed to botch their moral highground by attacking civilian targets.

The VS are no more brainwashed chumps than the TR and NC soldiers who can't see the potential downfall that their ideals may lead to.

Every side has an over inflated sense that their sides victory will turn out awesome for humanity. The TR see an Auraxis that has it's own thousand years of peace and prosperity. The NC see a future where everybody is free to make their own way and live as they see fit, without being subject to the rule of another man. The VS see the ushering in of a descendant of human beings, who is more wise and powerful than modern man, who can finally break the bonds that humanity has struggled against since the dawn of civilization.

Quite frankly, all of them seem a little too hopeful. At least the VS have something new up their sleeves that humanity hasn't tried before. The TR aren't looking so bad either, considering that they have 1000 years of (relative) peace to point at in support of their goals. The most crazy seeming ones are the NC. Freedom is a great ideal, but it seems like they are heading more towards anarchy or corporate domination. When has that ever worked, either in the context of real life or the fictional future of Planetside?

I'm mostly VS for the cool armor, but I would be disappointed if I felt that they had become completely deluded, insane zealots. I'd also be disappointed if they had complete justification and that the only reason not to be VS was all disinformation and propaganda. I feel like we are finally moving away from the latter, so I'm pretty happy with the development of the story, as long as we don't start swinging too far towards the former.

It still seems like classic Planetside to me. TR = Stability and Prosperity, NC = Freedom and Personal Liberty, VS = Technology and Transhumanism.

They all just have a little more depth to them this time around.

Twheee · 2011-11-29, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Canaris

The TR have been saying this all along!

And there goes elmo trying to turn us against eachother....

Originally Posted by Xyntech

To the VS: We seek technological evolution and are bravely taking up arms to defend the true future of humanity. Vanu has given tangible proof in the form of technology and has earned our respect and trust.

To their enemies: They are all brain washed cultists that follow some sort of imaginary or malevolent leader, who will bring about the destruction of humanity and the known universe.

Not really helping the cause when we throw around religious terms like blessing and smiting. We're scientists. We should know better.

Canaris · 2011-11-29, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Twheee

And there goes elmo trying to turn us against eachother....

if your Ancients were so great why then are they extinct and Auraxis left as a devasted wasteland..... all the warning signs are there

btw Great post Xyntech

Xyntech · 2011-11-29, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Canaris

if your Ancients were so great why then are they extinct and Auraxis left as a devasted wasteland..... all the warning signs are there

btw Great post Xyntech

Shut up! They devasted the planet during a giant keg party on their last night before they ascended to a higher plane of existence!

Now let me throw up another wall of text to make your eyes bleed and subject you to Vanu's will.

Twheee · 2011-11-29, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Canaris

if your Ancients were so great why then are they extinct and Auraxis left as a devasted wasteland..... all the warning signs are there

btw Great post Xyntech

Hey. Just because an alien race decided to store their collective consciousness inside a couple of crappy action figures doesn't mean they aren't powerful.

@xyntech Possibility that said crappy action figures are in fact leftover advanced alien beer bongs used for consumption of delicious purple kool-aid?

Canaris · 2011-11-29, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Xyntech

Shut up! They devasted the planet during a giant keg party on their last night before they ascended to a higher plane of existence!

Now let throw up another wall of text to make your eyes bleed and subject you to Vanu's will.

so.......... you're saying that your "gods" are a bunch light weights eh?
can't hold their liquor

and Twheee haven't you seen childs play and the bride of chucky, they didn't end well!

FastAndFree · 2011-11-29, 11:23 AM

Wow Xyntech, nice

Also, on Briggs' specific supposed brainwashing.

He lived his entire life with near zero empathy, but then his mind was miraculously balanced without losing anything. That is a life-changing event. It is unsurprising that his personality and entire outlook on life changed.

His shift was not instantenous either. Is it so implausible that after months of soul searching he decided that his goal in life was to understand what has changed his life forever?

He said "Vanu was my purpose; my reason for being." not "Serving my alien masters was my purpose"

Remember that at this point Vanu is just a word with no clear meaning. He wanted to understand what happened to him and how and perhaps why, not dedicating his life to an alien overlord

Xyntech · 2011-11-29, 11:36 AM

At the very least, it's sounding like Vanu is a plausible trap that people could fall into, with the best of intentions going in. Not so unlike the NC and TR.

I'm sure all three sides are supposedly filled with their own share of ignorant people who were duped into the cause, but to dismiss any one of them as based entirely on being fooled into servitude is to do a disservice to the positives and negatives of all three sides.

The alien tech is so amazing that even the TR and NC use it. Immortality, that's huge. It's almost surprising that the NC and TR haven't taken more notice of Vanu. But they have their own goals and ideals, thus we arrive at the global conflict.

FastAndFree · 2011-11-29, 11:43 AM

They must see ancient technology as a slippery slope.
They can't avoid using it, but better use as little as possible lest they fall under alien influences.

I mean, just look at those wacko technoreligious nutjobs, boldly sliding down with no regards to what might be at the bottom