Drivers Main Weapon

[sylphaen]

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

Ill possibly be giving the mag a whirl, it could be a farming machine or it could not.

Let's not forget the new "vertical gameplay™". Those very interesting gravity mechanics shall be fun for tanks !
^^

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by dsi

Raymac: Please tell me how much teamwork Battlefield tanks require. All 0% of it, the driver is doing the majority of the work while the secondary gunner gets to do drive-bys on inf.

I know it's been said, and I know it's blatantly obvious, but here goes: Planetside isn't Battlefield.

The massive scale and persistance is what makes teamwork so much more important than a quick little 10 minute, 16-man arena shooter. Sure e-sports teams do their thing, but we've all played Planetside, and we've all seen how teamwork is important, whether you are running bang buses, a squadron of reavers, or just a group in a tower.

You can say you don't like the idea since it is different from Planetside 1 (to each their own), but don't try to sell me the bullshit that it's going to kill teamwork.

Worst case scenario is 2 solo tanks are better than 1 tank with a gunner, but those 2 tanks will still need to somewhat coordinate for that to be the case. You know, all teamwork like.

[dsi]

Originally Posted by Raymac

I know it's been said, and I know it's blatantly obvious, but here goes: Planetside isn't Battlefield.

The massive scale and persistance is what makes teamwork so much more important than a quick little 10 minute, 16-man arena shooter. Sure e-sports teams do their thing, but we've all played Planetside, and we've all seen how teamwork is important, whether you are running bang buses, a squadron of reavers, or just a group in a tower.

You can say you don't like the idea since it is different from Planetside 1 (to each their own), but don't try to sell me the bullshit that it's going to kill teamwork.

Worst case scenario is 2 solo tanks are better than 1 tank with a gunner, but those 2 tanks will still need to somewhat coordinate for that to be the case. You know, all teamwork like.

What about the driver and gunner combo teamwork? Oh wait...

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Know what else doesn't require teamwork? Infantry. People bitched and bitched, so now everyone gets to control their own legs and own gun. They don't have to pick whether they are the legs or arms anymore, like a game with real teamwork has. Why are all infantry players such killwhores? Can't they see the obvious benefits of teamwork?

But we all know that argument is ridiculous. Its ridiculous for vehicles too. Forced teamwork is false teamwork. If there is no option other than doing it its not teamwork at all. It wasn't even difficult. There's no tactics or coordination involved, just reporting. Reaver behind us. Tank to the front. Softy over there behind the tree.




PS was tankside. It was far and away the most common and useful combat vehicle. Most everything else people just took out for a lark(buggies..), or because it had a useful secondary role.

What are you even trying to get at here? One is a human and the other is a multi-human-operated machine.

It isn't ridiculous for vehicles because vehicles are like that, they're more powerful than a single person so shouldn't they be harder to use to balance them? Or are we going to get 1v1s of tanks vs inf ala Battlefield now?

Play Project Reality and tell me forced teamwork is false teamwork. Or fuck, play any game with multi-manned tanks, you know, like Planetside.

Also "There's no tactics or coordination involved, just reporting. Reaver behind us. Tank to the front. Softy over there behind the tree." is exactly what is going to happen with the secondary gunner system, the passenger might just take a few potshots as he reports targets. Then the driver runs into a tree because he was trying to do too many things at once because SOE has no idea how vehicles work anymore apparently.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by dsi

What about the driver and gunner combo teamwork? Oh wait...

I know you're not suggesting there wouldn't be teamwork with a driver and gunner combo, because that doesn't change at all whether the driver can shoot or not. The driver drives, and the dude in the backseat doesn't. It's the same in video games and in real life.

And speaking of real life, don't play the "it's not realistic" card now because drivers don't shoot. Everybody knows that. Nobody is that stupid. But it falls into the gameplay vs realism spectrum. You want simulation realism, go play your Project Reality or ArmA. That was never Planetside 1, and it's not going to be Planetside 2.

I can understand the point of view of not liking the change simply because it's different. But don't pull the strawman fallicy by dragging it through the mud then complaining about it being dirty. Tanks will still have a 2nd seat, and it's a gunner, not just a passenger.

God forbid the guy that actually spends his skill points on the tank be allowed to shoot the freakin thing. Sky is not falling. Teamwork lives.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by HtSgtMAD

all the tank with the driver/gunner combo has to do is pick his ground,all they need is a few obstacles or small hills to work with and its over for both single-manned tanks ,add in some half-assed air support and the single-manned tank is a death trap

damn, that sounds like a lot of fun

As a long-time Lightning driver I can tell you that once people get used to driving and gunning at the same time (and they will) your argument won't hold any water. The two tanks will simply flank to either side of any obstacle you put in front of them and continue putting on the pressure from different angles.

The 2-man tank in this scenario basically has 3 options:

1. Zero both cannons on one target and hope to take it out quickly so it can then focus on the 2nd tank. This can work if you can isolate one of the tanks long enough to kill it uninterrupted. But if you can't that gives the 2nd tank time to focus solely on accurate firing without having to dodge so it can really rip into the 2-man tank w/o repercussion. It can even stop in place and concentrate fully on firing (I do this all the time in PS1, even in larger battles).
2. Focus one cannon on each of the two 1-man tanks, but then the driver has the same drive-and-gun multitasking to do and the 2ndary gunner no longer has the tank being positioned to optimize his shots. Meaning the greater armour of 2 tanks vs 1 will probably win out
3. The driver can forego firing and concentrate on fancy manueuvering. This will help with survivability, but you now have 1/2 the armour and half the firepower. The 2 tanks would probably win in this case.

Accurately firing a tank's main cannon while driving over uneven terrain is not that big of a deal once you get a little practice at it. The only time it becomes an issue is when you are almost dead and fleeing for your life.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Know what else doesn't require teamwork? Infantry. People bitched and bitched, so now everyone gets to control their own legs and own gun. They don't have to pick whether they are the legs or arms anymore, like a game with real teamwork has. Why are all infantry players such killwhores? Can't they see the obvious benefits of teamwork?

But we all know that argument is ridiculous. Its ridiculous for vehicles too. Forced teamwork is false teamwork. If there is no option other than doing it its not teamwork at all. It wasn't even difficult. There's no tactics or coordination involved, just reporting. Reaver behind us. Tank to the front. Softy over there behind the tree.

That's a pretty bad analogy. Infantry are slow moving, squishy targets that give up the ghost if they take a couple bullets to the head or a nearby vehicle breathes on them too hard. Whereas vehicles have a ton more firepower then infantry, move way faster, and can take a lot more punishment. One way PS1 balanced that is to force MBT drivers to get a gunner. Tanks need to have limitations otherwise nobody will play infantry outside.

However, tanks drivers in PS2 have just as much teamwork forced upon them as they did in PS1. PS2 tank drivers are being forced to gun as well if they want to survive when going up against an enemy 2-man tank. I don't see how that is any better than the PS1 mechanics in this regard.

The obvious compromise is to allow the driver to hand off control of the main cannon to a 2nd gunner if they desire, making it a 3-man tank. That is what I wish they'd do. But then, as already mentioned you run into a design problem with the Mag which has a forward-fixed cannon.

[dsi]

Originally Posted by Raymac

I know you're not suggesting there wouldn't be teamwork with a driver and gunner combo, because that doesn't change at all whether the driver can shoot or not. The driver drives, and the dude in the backseat doesn't. It's the same in video games and in real life.

And speaking of real life, don't play the "it's not realistic" card now because drivers don't shoot. Everybody knows that. Nobody is that stupid. But it falls into the gameplay vs realism spectrum. You want simulation realism, go play your Project Reality or ArmA. That was never Planetside 1, and it's not going to be Planetside 2.

I can understand the point of view of not liking the change simply because it's different. But don't pull the strawman fallicy by dragging it through the mud then complaining about it being dirty. Tanks will still have a 2nd seat, and it's a gunner, not just a passenger.

God forbid the guy that actually spends his skill points on the tank be allowed to shoot the freakin thing. Sky is not falling. Teamwork lives.

But it was Planetside, Planetside was focused on teamwork at all levels. If they aren't going to do that with PS2 why not just say so so we can all just forget about PS2 now and not worry about it until we find out when we finally get to play it?

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by dsi

But it was Planetside, Planetside was focused on teamwork at all levels. If they aren't going to do that with PS2 why not just say so so we can all just forget about PS2 now and not worry about it until we find out when we finally get to play it?

That's the point. Teamwork is still encouraged. Capisce? It still has a 2nd gunner seat. What game are you lookin at? Quit acting like they took out the 2nd seat altogether, and they removed outfits, and there's no more squads, and it's a 1v1 arena deathmatch.

On top of that, it's an assault vehicle. It's a tank. It's not a troop transport. Let the pilots of assault vehicles shoot, and let the troop transports be the chauffeurs. It's that simple, and that logical.

[Coreldan]

The primary turrets are also likely to be much weaker at anything non-armored. Like it was said that Vanny still 1 hits soldiers on A DIRECT HIT, as opposed to the 10m splash

So you will very much be reliant on your secondary gunner to keep you safe from AT-soldiers/air-to-ground aircrafts.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by Coreldan

The primary turrets are also likely to be much weaker at anything non-armored. Like it was said that Vanny still 1 hits soldiers on A DIRECT HIT, as opposed to the 10m splash

So you will very much be reliant on your secondary gunner to keep you safe from AT-soldiers/air-to-ground aircrafts.

This is a very good point. People will be encouraged to get a gunner for their MBT because w/o one it'll be vulnerable to enemy softies and air. But with a secondary gunner you can be AV/AI, or AV/AA. Whereas two 1-man MBT's can only be 2xAV since I don't believe you can change out the main cannon.

[Vash02]

It doesent matter how much you practice, you are still going to be fucked by that rock/tree you were not looking for because you are firing at a target.

No amount of practice will ever solve that issue, there's a reason why most tanks in BF3 will simply stop and slug it out rather than attempt to keep moving.

[SKYeXile]

Originally Posted by Vash02

It doesent matter how much you practice, you are still going to be fucked by that rock/tree you were not looking for because you are firing at a target.

No amount of practice will ever solve that issue, there's a reason why most tanks in BF3 will simply stop and slug it out rather than attempt to keep moving.

really depends on whether there is a target reticule in 3rd person.

[ringring]

From yesterday enemy tech was enabled in PS1 which gave me the pleasure of again driving a magrider. That thing is fun!

But again it highlighted a worry about the PS2 driver/gunner thing.

I think the mag is good because:

• the magrider has a fixed forward gun, albeit with some lateral and virtical movement to assist aiming.
  the magrider can strafe making it more manoeverable
  the driver gun, while it causes damage is the secondary
  the main gun is particularly good again armour including aircraft and especially reavers

If the PS2 prowler has the above attributes I'll be happy, but it won't.

However, one of the most important things a prowler driver has to do is to escape when damaged ..... and if the driver's gun is in a turret and is the main armament this won't be easy.
I am thinking the upshot will be that driving the new prowler will be akin to driving a lightning. If you fire in one direction while moving in another, as you will have to, wil be similarly frustrating.

I'm not looking forward to it.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by Vash02

It doesent matter how much you practice, you are still going to be fucked by that rock/tree you were not looking for because you are firing at a target.

No amount of practice will ever solve that issue, there's a reason why most tanks in BF3 will simply stop and slug it out rather than attempt to keep moving.

Wrong.

I think the key phrase in your statement is "that rock/tree you were not looking for because you are firing at a target." That begs the question: Why weren't you looking for it before you opened fire?

Having good spatial awareness is vital if you're going to be driving and gunning at the same time. If you're constantly running into obstacles on the battlefield you need to spend less time just focusing on enemy units and more time paying attention to your surroundings.

If you make a conscious effort to frequently scan the area around you and take inventory of the surrounding terrain features, it should become easier for you to keep a mental image of what obstacles are around you even while you're in the midst of combat.

I'm not saying it's an easy skill to develop or that you'll never ever run into a rock or tree again. But if you practice at it enough (see what I did there? ) it will eventually become second nature to you. The only time I ever accidentally run into an obstacle while driving a Lightning is if I'm trying to fire behind me while fleeing and actively evading a pursuing enemy. The rest of the time I can fire and maneuver through all but the thickest forests as well as a 2-man vehicle can.

[Vash02]

Really catering to the casual gamer there. Make everyone die until they learn the conts to the square foot and then it will be fine!

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Raymac

And speaking of real life, don't play the "it's not realistic" card now because drivers don't shoot. Everybody knows that. Nobody is that stupid.

Realistic in the sense its not done, sure. But its certainly possible. There have been tanks with autoloaders, and there is absolutely nothing preventing them from designing a system that a driver could use, such as with the head tracking tech like the apaches use(and there the Pilot can and does control the turret from time to time).

But troops are cheap compared to tanks, so they do it how it is now.

Originally Posted by Erendil

I'm not saying it's an easy skill to develop or that you'll never ever run into a rock or tree again. But if you practice at it enough (see what I did there? ) it will eventually become second nature to you. The only time I ever accidentally run into an obstacle while driving a Lightning is if I'm trying to fire behind me while fleeing and actively evading a pursuing enemy. The rest of the time I can fire and maneuver through all but the thickest forests as well as a 2-man vehicle can.

Definitely not an easy skill. I generally had to pull back to 80% speed in lightnings to manage to not hit stuff.