A serious question about modern gaming and Support class's.

Forsaken One · 2012-01-20, 03:20 AM

The question is simple. Why can't I play as a full "Support"?

You don't play Assault and have the grenade launcher on another Assault type char.

You don't play a Sniper but have the high zoom scopes on a different char.

Why must I be a Engineer OR a Medic? Why can't I just be "The Support"?

Give the Assault the AV and let someone who wants to play a full Supporting class do so.

Shade Millith · 2012-01-20, 03:28 AM

Because SOE hates choice.

Sirisian · 2012-01-20, 03:33 AM

Engineer is for repairing vehicles and setting up deployables. Their inventory will be focused on that. (Possibly focusing on being the gunner class. The guy you want to jump into your tank).

With the new shield mechanic the medic's role is to heal and possibly other things. I think you're painting the classes with a very narrow brush. Basically they'll be doing so much stuff in unique parts of the battle that combining them would be like combining infiltrator and assault.

Vancha · 2012-01-20, 03:38 AM

How do you know the medic won't have vehicle support specializations (I'm thinking bio-tech and nanite manipulation), or that the engineer won't have medical stations and such? It doesn't seem unlikely that one of them will have the other role available in some form, though it might not be as proficient at it.

Forsaken One · 2012-01-20, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Basically they'll be doing so much stuff in unique parts of the battle that combining them would be like combining infiltrator and assault.

so, Infiltrator and Snipers don't count when they are combined?

Honestly I could say the same thing about the other classes. A Assaults role is to Assault not camp and spam nades with his GL attachment. Why not make a tanky Assault class and a camping Grenadier class then?

A Engineer and Medic being one class would fit well. they both "fix" and deploy stuff. The Engy fixes the ride and the Medic fixes the body. (medics tend to deploy medic stations or boxes or something to heal as well.)

Why is it supports are always the one that ends up with the short end of the stick and forced to choose specializations?

Magpie · 2012-01-20, 04:51 AM

Don't make them recode the game lol it's gonna be fine the way it is, if your a medic your not gonna have time to do both coz there's gonna be 330 people to try and heal lol

Ps1 is self centred and ps2 is aiming to team work, plus if your eng u gonna have lots of toys to play with and u want as much as u can get in lol

CutterJohn · 2012-01-20, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

Why is it supports are always the one that ends up with the short end of the stick and forced to choose specializations?

Largely because the two roles, while similar in scope/style, do not interact much. Engineers for the most part concern themselves with vehicles, either repairing them or attacking them, or with setting up static defenses. Medics concern themselves with troops, again, repairing or attacking(and usually rezing), and stick around the troops.

Remember that there is no infantry armor to heal in PS2, so an engineer doesn't have much place within the ranks of infantryman.

Also we don't know for sure that medics/engineers can't grab a repair kit or medapp. It might be that all classes can grab those things, but medics would have extra options/efficiency at the role, or can carry more, or whatever. We know some things will be available cross class, but not what won't be, if indeed anything is.

Oh, and lastly, because you can only carry so much crap. Just because PS1 allowed you to carry around a medapp and glue gun in your pistol slots does not mean you will be able to do so in PS2. If you have medic gear and a gun, where are you going to stash the engineer gear?

Knocky · 2012-01-20, 05:17 AM

Because you don't need to be anymore.

Trooper armor does not get repaired anymore.

If you are healing troops it is doubtful that you will have time to repair any tanks.

If you are outside the base where that is possible then park a Sundy nearby so you can switch your roles at the terminal.

Forsaken One · 2012-01-20, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Largely because the two roles, while similar in scope/style, do not interact much. Engineers for the most part concern themselves with vehicles, either repairing them or attacking them, or with setting up static defenses. Medics concern themselves with troops, again, repairing or attacking(and usually rezing), and stick around the troops.

Yes but stop and think about it for a second. Its still Support. In fact if they were one class that would make a true INdoor and OUTdoor support. As for deployables they can ALL take one slot.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Oh, and lastly, because you can only carry so much crap. Just because PS1 allowed you to carry around a medapp and glue gun in your pistol slots does not mean you will be able to do so in PS2. If you have medic gear and a gun, where are you going to stash the engineer gear?

ever play a game called Quake Wars?

You select the deployables key then scroll through the deployables and pick one.

I also think Section 8 is the same if I remember right.

I'll happily not have a pistol to carry more support stuff.

So all the deployables can fall under one key, you got maybe a medic box/throw out needle or something, repair tool, tossable shield or spitfire or something, gun, smoke nade, med thingy to res people.

thats. 7 buttons, and a scroll list under one of them. that leaves 2-3 numbers on the keyboard. the nade may not even count as it may have a grenade button, (like F or G)

Originally Posted by Knocky

Because you don't need to be anymore.

Trooper armor does not get repaired anymore.

If you are healing troops it is doubtful that you will have time to repair any tanks.

but whats the harm in someone being able to fully cert a Support class? Why FORCE the choice of which to be at any given time. The ones that want to heal can, but they can repair their or their friends ride as well. Why not let them be the full and true support guy that anyone can call when they need some type of support?

CutterJohn · 2012-01-20, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

Yes but stop and think about it for a second. Its still Support. In fact if they were one class that would make a true INdoor and OUTdoor support. As for deployables they can ALL take one slot.

Sure they are both support. A sniper rifle and HA fulfill fundamentally different roles too, even though they are both technically AI.

Whats the difference between two classes and one? You're not limited. Grab the other class when you go outside. You'd have had to change gear anyway.

ever play a game called Quake Wars?

[Image Removed]

You select the deployables key then scroll through the deployables and pick one.

I also think Section 8 is the same if I remember right.

Why would they let you have access to 8 different deployables at once?

I'll happily not have a pistol to carry more support stuff.

Assumes the support stuff can fit in a pistol slot. The engineer repair gizmo may just be the rifle sized thing, since there is no infantry armor anymore.

So all the deployables can fall under one key, you got maybe a medic box/throw out needle or something, repair tool, tossable shield or spitfire or something, gun, smoke nade, med thingy to res people.

thats. 7 buttons, and a scroll list under one of them. that leaves 2-3 numbers on the keyboard. the nade may not even count as it may have a grenade button, (like F or G)

Obviously you can fit everything in a game. In fact you could program the game to let players carry everything, including vehicles, if you wanted to.

But thats disregarding their objectives for balance and class diversity. They don't want one man armies. Presumably that means they don't want one man support armies as well.

but whats the harm in someone being able to fully cert a Support class? Why FORCE the choice of which to be at any given time. The ones that want to heal can, but they can repair their or their friends ride as well. Why not let them be the full and true support guy that anyone can call when they need some type of support?

Nobody is forcing you not to cert both medic and engy. If you want to be The Support Guy, then by all means, cert both engy and medic.

Forsaken One · 2012-01-20, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Sure they are both support. A sniper rifle and HA fulfill fundamentally different roles too, even though they are both technically AI.

you are making the wrong combo. Why can't a support actually fully support BUT a "Sniper rifle and cloak" which should be on "fundamentally different roles too" be allowed?

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Whats the difference between two classes and one? You're not limited. Grab the other class when you go outside. You'd have had to change gear anyway.

Yeah whats the difference? You're not limited. Grab a melee knife user if you want cloak. Grab the other class (sniper) if you want range. You'd have had to change gear anyway.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Obviously you can fit everything in a game. In fact you could program the game to let players carry everything, including vehicles, if you wanted to.

But thats disregarding their objectives for balance and class diversity. They don't want one man armies. Presumably that means they don't want one man support armies as well.

A full support is such a one man army. I mean that HA and deci he carrys just takes a dump all over everyone... oh wait...he has weak weapons and needs to rely on the fighters to protect him.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Nobody is forcing you not to cert both medic and engy. If you want to be The Support Guy, then by all means, cert both engy and medic.

Nobody is forcing you not to cert both Sniper and Cloaker. If you want to be The Rambo Killwhore, then by all means, cert both Sniper and cloaker.

Coreldan · 2012-01-20, 06:24 AM

I can sorta relate to the idea. I like being support, but in no game you ever really get to do all of the support stuff without the need to change class. I have no idea why did they bunch up assault and medic together to begin with in BF3.

"Full support" vs. Medic & engi is sort of a thing that I think both make sense, but some things in both also don't make sense.

From someone who enjoys supporting, I would even like to see this happen, but I think it would require quite a bit of an overhaul to their class system at this point.

The "full support" would probably lose stuff like rocket launchers and other directly AV weaponry. Mines I could still understand as I would other deployables such as turrets. As for their weaponry, I'd give the "carbine" stuff, as in pretty much similar to MA, but they are classified as different weapons so that they can be balanced without hurting fe. those playing the assault classes.

That said, I do understand why not to make a full support class. It pretty much goes with the same reasoning why they changed tanks having drivers that can gun. They want everyone to enjoy and not one person having the dull stuff while other gets to blow shit up. While this would probably please the ppl who really wanna play as support, it might actually push away people who "need" to do the support, but dont really want to. This way they would be quite poor at anything but just the supporting, while with seperated engi and medic you can give both some cool, decent and unique combat niches (such as engi having AV launchers, perhaps)

SKYeXile · 2012-01-20, 06:29 AM

i still dont think that the engineer will get an AV weapon, i doubt they're going to follow battlefield class for class.

Forsaken One · 2012-01-20, 06:32 AM

Well said core. I myself honestly don't understand the whole thing of Engys being the ones to carry around the main AV guns. That is like the sniper carrying around the medic bags.

I wouldn't miss the Rocket launcher, the assault class can have it. that's their job, they blow enemies up, the Engy should be blowing walls, bridges, etc up. maybe laying demo traps, mines, and c4 as deployables but its stupid when the same guy who fix's vehicles is the same guy to jump out of them and be a mobile vehicle AV cannon in his own right.

As for your edit core. No one should "need" to do support. (in the choice sense.) You should have it set up so that the ones who WANT to support can fully support, and the ones who want to blow shit up, can zerg all they want.(if they want to zerg.) they already did this with the sniper and made it a rambo 1 shot kill cannon.

Coreldan · 2012-01-20, 06:37 AM

Somehow I can still swallow the engi carrying AV guns. Even before BF3, it does feel halfway natural to me.

I raised the concern about randoms not wanting to pick up support role at all if it was full support, as it would mean non-existant combat capabilities. I was thinking that if it would be possible through the cert system, they could perhaps give the support class a weapon specialization that has cool stuff, similar to other classes, but if you take that, you can only cert into one of the support roles.

As in you could take:

Engineering + Medicing as main "certs"

or perhaps

Engineering + weapon spec

or

medic + weapon spec

This way those who want to go full support, can, and they willingly give away the cool combat niches. Those who arnt into the full support idea, could mix & match and choose the support-role they want and the "cool weapons".

But I guess that gets a tad complicated and I dont think the cert system currently works anything like that

If we just go with the "PS-style" engineer, if they won't get the AV weapons, I'm not quite sure what they would get? If we think about a healthy balance between combat abilities and support abilities, I think giving AV weaponry would sorta provide that. That said, it's sorta retarded in BF3 how if you are not an engineer, you can't scratch a tank. So I dont want engineers only to be able to hurt armor, but I wouldnt mind them being the best at doing so.

And just as a disclaimer, these are random assortment of thoughts, not trying to really argument much.