Higgles on certs and progression - Page 4

Figment · 2012-01-25, 04:34 PM

Can't chill out due to frustration as long as you have no clue what the point that's being discussed is.

You somehow can't see that you are using a completely different (worse, to me completely irrational too) frame of reference.

You and others have said things about assumptions, at least I wasn't basing my arguments on blatant lies. Around 80% of my PS experience is about engaging enemies in low pop situations, either on offensive or defensive. In the remaining situations I'm breaking zerg stalemates on my own, by sabotage, capturing towers, taking out AMSes and placing routers. Now, I gave up a lot to be able to do that, but it means that not everyone goes out of their way to blow up gens all the time, simply because they don't have the tools for it and that's a good thing.

You stating that situations where the equipment one person has access to is irrelevant and stating that low pop situations hardly ever happen is the biggest piece of ignorance and therefore bull I've seen in years. These situations happen continuously on and off of zerged continents. Not having access to equipment within a life time and over diverse lifetimes makes a ton of difference.

Not having access to CE or AV EVER, means for instance you won't ever blow the generator on your own. The mere notion of having CE or AV means you can. Everyone having an infil suit and CE on top of that makes it a far more likely occurance that someone with an infil suit is present and would go down and blow up a gen. It makes a ton of difference who is present at a fight.

I've seen situations where in a squad of 9 people, nobody but one (who was afk) had advanced hacking as they were all specced in engi, medic and mossie/reaver and they had to run an LLU on foot as they could not get a vehicle locally, until I drove over with ATV and got a Deliverer out (since I have no buggies and since the base was already hacked, nobody could get a Skyguard out anymore as tech link was broken - which meant Deli was a better choice than Harasser and I was the only one with access to GT).

Having to make such choices is incredibly important to what happens in game. Be it in low pop, high pop or elsewhere, individuality makes people important. Everyone being a generalist makes everyone meh and makes sure nobody is ever faced in a situations where they have to make due with what they got.

Not having to make due means people will fall into default mode much sooner, everything will be far more similar in setup and incentives to use imagination for both situation and creating new tactics and strategies is lost because you can always default to using the heaviest thing you got. And since everyone would have access to that, that will happen continuously.

It is utterly narrowminded to say it doesn't matter (much) and is fine. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING changes (and from my perspective, for the worse) when everyone has near unlimited access to everything. Interdependency, strategies, mixing, everything becomes more plain, more boring, less fun and varied.

Figment · 2012-01-25, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

You're changing the subject. (you do that alot) Your arguement has no bearing on the subject because you can't be AA/AV/AI Max all at once. Really.

Sure sure. You never talk from a one life one weapon perspective. No sirree, I'm the one who is putting narrowminded words in your mouth.

Or how about this one:

Originally Posted by Raymac

Really? You make it sound like there will be equipment terminals and spawn points every 10 feet. We've all played this game so we all know that with the dynamic nature of the battlefield MUCH changes in the time that it takes to respawn or run back to an equipment terminal.

In 2 minutes, the threat that took you out may very well be gone to reload or even be destroyed. The fact that you can now equip yourself to counter the threat that took you out may be moot by the time you get back to where he was when you died.

Plus, that is even assuming that he is in the same place which we all know is highly unlikely. If you sit around in 1 spot for too long, somebody will always take you out, no matter what vehicle or weapon you have.

So, I don't really give a crap if you think I'm insightful or not, but there is a difference between being able to carry everything you need on you and having to switch loadouts at a terminal.

Again with the narrowmindedness.

You dismissing and ignoring any other argument about an engagement taking some time longer by pretending that in two minutes everything has already changed at all times and is therefore "moot". Bullox. IF in those two minutes you can change to a class with say expert hacking, that's completely different from if you can't change to a class with expert hacking, AT ALL.

But you won't acknowledge that at all. No, you narrowmindedly assume there'll be someone present who got that anyway. Because you assume it does not matter if you meet the same person in a variety of suits, because it might as well have been someone different. Well it isn't, it's the same person who respawned or changed gear, who would otherwise have been another class that could be easier to take out. That's a major fault with your argument and you are either too blind to see that, or simply won't admit it because it'd ruin your entire argument. And it does.

You also complain about putting words in your mouth, how about you pretending that my argumentation is only valid if you have a recert term every ten meters? You got plenty of time in engagements like PS to switch gear, you often have whole minutes to do so, even in 15 vs 15 situations and switching upon death is instant, whereas your opponent probably has not changed gear at all - at most repaired and healed.

You are clearly not part of a resec team, since you'd know better.

Raymac · 2012-01-25, 04:53 PM

First, the game is an mmo and primarily focused on larger battles.
Second, yes, you are right that smaller skirmishes on the outskirts of the major battles are common and important. I've done tons of rapid response team stuff.

But the point is, even on those smaller skirmishes, they don't happen in an isolated test tube arenas. People come and go. Objectives change. All of this I'm sure you are well aware of. In fact, the smaller skirmishes are quicker and more dynamic than the larger battles since troop numbers have a much more noticable effect.

You seem to say that it is a problem that a player can switch to a needed role if there is not a person handily available for that role. I see that as a positive. To use an example or 2, who here likes spamming "Looking for healer" in an rpg, or who loved not being able to enter a base because nobody had a REK?

If somebody can take a couple minutes to run to a terminal and fill a needed role, I see that as a positive. It will still be better if you show up prepared with a well rounded group so you don't need to spend those few minutes as that person makes the round trip. Like I said, the fights are even more dynamic in the smaller skirmishes. It will be way better to have a medic with you than to wait for somebody to run to a terminal, switch to medic, and run back. By then everyone might be dead. But at least you don't need to spam on command chat "Need a medic at Dagda!"

And thanks for toning down the personal insults. If you are as smart as you think you are, then you'll know they simply distract from the topic and make you look petty.

Raymac · 2012-01-25, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

Sure sure. You never talk from a one life one weapon perspective. No sirree, I'm the one who is putting narrowminded words in your mouth.

Since you are being dickish about it repeatedly, let me simply remind you to the point I was responding to back in the beginning of the conversation.

Originally Posted by Figment

Considering you are not locked into a class, but can change at your whim at an equip term or next respawn, yes you can use it all at all times when the need arrises.

I was simply pointing out that there is a difference between being able to switch loadouts at a terminal and having all the equipment you need already on you. And the difference is the time it takes to go to an available terminal and back or respawn and return which is a sizable difference in time than a simple hot swap. That was the point I was addressing at the time.

Figment · 2012-01-25, 05:14 PM

But neither is a significant or even relevant time constraint in contrast to NOT carrying it, ever, at all.

Roy Awesome · 2012-01-25, 05:31 PM

:popcorn:

Raymac · 2012-01-25, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

But neither is a significant or even relevant time constraint in contrast to NOT carrying it, ever, at all.

Well in comaprison to never, then yes the time constraint is quite a bit different. However, I think never having access to it is a worse evil than having it be minutes away. In fact it makes it far easier to organize a well rounded group for a spec ops when people can switch to a needed role than having to look for someone or call a friend to log on to fill that role.

For example, you are loading up a Galaxy and you realize nobody is a medic, "Can someone switch to a medic please? Great thanks."
Is better than "Is anybody here a medic? Nobody? Well does anybody know a medic? OK we'll wait for him to get here....anybody know any good jokes while we sit here for 10 minutes?"

Figment · 2012-01-25, 05:40 PM

Why does it have to be easier? If there are as many people as you claim there are in these fights, why do you need everyone to have it if one is enough? And what's wrong with making due without a medic?

To me, your argument smells a bit of 'too lazy to re-organize/re-cert myself' and perhaps even a bit anti-challenge. Why should you at all times be able to get the optimum (class) counter? And does this not reduce variety in gameplay significantly?

Raymac · 2012-01-25, 05:43 PM

I think you can answer your own questions there.

Figment · 2012-01-25, 05:45 PM

Laziness and short attentionspan, perhaps some entitlement to being able to win, is the answer then.

I don't like the answer, can I have another?

Scrima · 2012-01-25, 05:46 PM

I just have one question related "recerting." I know it has been said that you will not be allowed to "recert," so I wonder about the progression through the trees. I can see it going two ways, and I will illustrate with examples using cert "points" it takes to unlock something.

Example 1:
First cert on character-1 pt
Next cert-2 pts
Next cert-4 pts
Next cert-8 pts
etc... so if I take infil weapons for the first three certs, then decide to get a mossie cert, that mossie cert will cost 8 pts. I could see this leading to people wanting to build a "infil" character, a "commander" character, etc. This would be akin to people playing a MMORPG where you get 1 point every level to put into talents, but each level takes longer and longer to get so it is tough to do anything but specialize.

OR

Example 2:
First cert on tree-1 pt
Next cert on same tree-2 pts
Next cert on same tree-4 pts
First cert on another tree-1 pt
etc...

In example 2 I can see no reason to roll another character unless it is for a different faction, because if you decide you want to start something new you are essentially starting from ground zero, just with some extra certs in a different tree.

I can see why in both examples one could want to recert ("but I spent 1000 points going up the mossie tree, I wish I could just transfer those all over to MAXes"), but I would honestly prefer example 2 because it keeps people from flipping all over the place with high-level gear.

Raymac · 2012-01-25, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

Laziness and short attentionspan, perhaps some entitlement to being able to win, is the answer then.

I don't like the answer, can I have another?

Fun.

SKYeXile · 2012-01-25, 05:50 PM

Given that offline points are probably not accumulated per character, but per account i dont see the point in having an alt, unless its on another account.

Mastachief · 2012-01-25, 05:53 PM

as its completely free to play there is nothing to stop you having multiple accounts

NewSith · 2012-01-25, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Lonehunter

While I don't think it would be good to spend 100% of your time as a cloaker and just keep lvling up MAX armor/weapons, I don't see a problem using common pool vehicles or weaponry to earn xp that you could spend in any class. But if all I do is knife people while cloaking, then that xp should just go towards cloaking

^This caught my eye...

So what if I don't wanna play sniper in indoor assault?

Adding no restrictions for leveling is rather reasonable, some situations will simply not favor using certain classes. And if you restrict levelling to active classes, than people will simply use THEIR class in situations for DIFFERENT class. As in - medics driving tanks, snipers camping backdoors from outside to within, light assaults camping from a hill, etc...