Better Stealther Gameplay - Page 2

Warborn · 2012-01-30, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by Lonehunter

How do we know we won't have access to toys that did similar things in PS1? Hgby mentioned Boomers when talking about the Engineer but we may have something more suited for cloaking, like cloaked C4, or a sticky camera that can be detonated.

Higby mentioned boomers when he was listing off stuff you might have to spend resources to purchase. Maybe cloakers get them, maybe not, but if they're purchased consumables I doubt the class would revolve around them like they did in PS1.

As for melee, I just think about any stealth-action game out there when it comes to it. Having sneak attacks be instantly lethal is okay, I think, provided they're a gamble. If it's literally just a second of unstealthing, that probably won't work without giving infantry something like darklight to then pursue the cloaker. I really think artificial means of detecting cloakers by non-cloakers is a bad idea. But you can't make it so easy to kill people and get away with it if it's hard for infantry to find cloakers, either. It's really a careful balance, and I think it's a good idea to err on the side of "hard to get kills". Nothing is more frustrating than dealing with an enemy you can't really fight back against, and besides, making cloakers compete with assault infantry as their primary function would probably be a bad idea.

HitbackTR · 2012-01-30, 12:57 AM

I really hope the PS2 devs don't implement these ideas. I would hate to see one of my favorite classes/play-styles ruined by people who little to no idea on how effective a cloaker could actually be in Planetside. There was nothing I read in Warborn's post which displayed that he had any knowledge or insight on this and his/her ideas have me less than enthused to say the least, (as DaddyTickles mentioned also).

Playing a cloaker in PS1 was a hugely challenging role to play but also hugely successful and satisfying if done right. I'd like to see that it remains that way in PS2. I am not impressed that cloakers aren't gonna be able to carry CE and I hope that this would be changed but having said that I don't yet know what else has been planned for the class.
I am waiting with baited breath to see how in pans out in beta and in the live version.

Zulthus · 2012-01-30, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by HitbackTR

I really hope the PS2 devs don't implement these ideas. I would hate to see one of my favorite classes/play-styles ruined by people who little to no idea on how effective a cloaker could actually be in Planetside. There was nothing I read in Warborn's post which displayed that he had any knowledge or insight on this and his/her ideas have me less than enthused to say the least, (as DaddyTickles mentioned also).

Playing a cloaker in PS1 was a hugely challenging role to play but also hugely successful and satisfying if done right. I'd like to see that it remains that way in PS2. I am not impressed that cloakers aren't gonna be able to carry CE and I hope that this would be changed but having said that I don't yet know what else has been planned for the class.
I am waiting with baited breath to see how in pans out in beta and in the live version.

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Lonehunter · 2012-01-30, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Cloaked C4 would be horribly unbalanced. There should always be a visual cue.

There still could be, but a very small one (smaller then a boomer)

I'd also like to see cloakers get better recon-like abilities. Detect enemies? Deployable cameras? Hide in enemy vehicles?

Warborn · 2012-01-30, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by HitbackTR

I really hope the PS2 devs don't implement these ideas. I would hate to see one of my favorite classes/play-styles ruined by people who little to no idea on how effective a cloaker could actually be in Planetside.

This seems to be really difficult for people to understand. It's not a question of effectiveness. Not once did I say "cloakers in PS1 were bad". I said their gameplay was poorly done and it was a missed opportunity to make something cool and interesting that played more like actual stealth-action titles.

I know it was a lot of words, but it would be really cool if people would either read it and respond, or just not respond, as it's sort of repetitive having to constantly restate stuff that was in my original post.

HitbackTR · 2012-02-01, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Warborn

This seems to be really difficult for people to understand. It's not a question of effectiveness. Not once did I say "cloakers in PS1 were bad". I said their gameplay was poorly done and it was a missed opportunity to make something cool and interesting that played more like actual stealth-action titles.

I know it was a lot of words, but it would be really cool if people would either read it and respond, or just not respond, as it's sort of repetitive having to constantly restate stuff that was in my original post.

Cloaker gameplay was fine in Planetside, and it could often be a rewarding and pulse pounding experience to play one. And how is creeping around a battlefield killing people or blowing shit up not 'stealth action'? Its a completely different playstyle in which one's enjoyment is not subject to 'outwitting' AI which is always sub-par, (as in games such as Thief, Deus Ex: H.R., etc). Instead you were pitted against to human intelligence of the likes you will find which made the cloaker hugely rewarding to play.

Warborn · 2012-02-02, 01:26 AM

Stealth-action like Thief or Hitman or Splinter Cell means having objectives which aren't killing people (or in Hitman's case, aren't killing more than one or two specific people), and that when you find yourself killing people it's typically because you've made a mistake somewhere, or you're just goofing off. Cloakers in PS1 were just as much about killing people as some asshole in rexo with HA was. Sure if they came across an unguarded gen or CC they might take the time to blow it/hack it, but at the end of the day cloakers were as much in pursuit of kills as anyone else.

I think there's a better way to do them, and it's through making subtlety and guile paramount. Again, I'm not suggesting cloakers in PS2 be removed from the "kills dudes" playfield, but rather that their gameplay not be for all intents and purposes restricted to that function.

Jimmuc · 2012-02-03, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Warborn

I think there's a better way to do them, and it's through making subtlety and guile paramount. Again, I'm not suggesting cloakers in PS2 be removed from the "kills dudes" playfield, but rather that their gameplay not be for all intents and purposes restricted to that function.

really? only thing an infil could do was kill? wtf are you smoking...that there says you know absolutely NOTHING!!!! cloaking in PS was intense and fulling is really all i can say. being an infil was about being the eyes and ears for your teammates, scouting ahead for on coming danger, slipping inside with your squad during an firefight without getting detected, placing the hack on the base or tower without the enemy noticing, throwing grenades from the wall at the enemy causing trouble, hacking an AMS from the enemy on the front denying them reinforcements...really there was a whole lot that an infil could do besides planting boomers and blowing someone up.

want to know the best moment of my long career with NCSF as an infil was? i'll tell ya. it was on emerald during an siege of the AMP station (cant remember name) in the southwest of cyssor. we (NC) had the hack on and the TR were hunkered down pretty damn well in the main lobby. i managed to sneak through one of the upper doors when only the outside door opened up hugging the inside wall as best as i could especially when the inside door opened and then commenced another barrage from mainly the TR with an some of NC shooting through, i was all "OMG OMG OMG" heart pumping so hard i could hear it..luckily i never got hit. so hugging the wall still i slowly moved (so my cloaking wouldn't lighten up at all staying completely cloaked) around the inside door keeping to the wall in till i was completely inside undetected. at this point i inched my way to the middle of the top part of the lobby, jumped up on the railing and commenced to provide intel on the TR. they had the LLU locked down with several maxes, people running all around me, flipped on DL and saw several TR infils running about, and after 3 or so minutes i made my plan. i had my outfit-mates grab an enforcer to provide transport to the LLU-capture base and when he arrived outside the door, i flipped on surge, jumped over the maxes, grabbed the LLU, and bee-lined it out the opposite door to safety. can't remember if we capped the base or the got the rehack but that doesnt matter.

so please...please tell me again that infils were only good for killing.

Warborn · 2012-02-03, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmuc

want to know the best moment of my long career with NCSF as an infil was?

How long did you play a cloaker for and how many times did this happen? How many times did you try the same thing only to have someone flick darklight on, see you, and kill you? We all have our "coolest moment" stories, and y'know, they probably are about the times we weren't just killing people. Doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. What I'm proposing is for cloakers to be encouraged to play the sneaky not-randomly-killing-guys role in PS2. I want cool moments where you sneak past some guys and accomplish some objective to be the mainstay of playing a cloaker, not the rare exception.

So if it's the more objective-focused kind of cloaker you enjoy the most, I can't see why you'd want to write seemingly against the propositions I've put forward. That's what I want too, and while I'm hardly married to any of the stuff in my original post, in principle I think that's what the kind of stuff I've suggested would allow for. Less random deaths, more emphasis on being stealthy, more objectives to accomplish while being stealthy.

Neksar · 2012-02-05, 11:53 AM

I was bad at murdering people as an infiltrator in the first, and I'd likely be bad at it in the second. What I *wasn't* bad at, though, was killing stealthers with darklight. Darklight needs a change, since it's basically free kills for anyone that flips it when a cloaker's in sight.

I've always been a supporter of objective-based stealth gameplay, and that was what I tried to do when I *did* cloak. I was the guy who preferred to drop viruses and hack towers, CE, vehicles, and terminals, rather than just kill people with CE. I like these ideas, and the overall goal of what you're trying to do. That won't stop others from railing you for trying to change what they're good at.

Stealthing lost a lot of its badassery for me way back when I noticed that it was pretty much an exercise in finding the right time to drop a boomer and not be seen. With the newer, more 'modern FPS' TTKs and graphics, it'd be roughly analogous to an invisible guy running around throwing C4 at people. And that's silly.

Cosmical · 2012-02-12, 07:05 PM

Youre all jumping down Warborn's throat for nothing. And lets try and keep statements like "YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ANYTHING!!" out of brainstorming conversations. Okay? We arnt 13 year old BF3'ers and MF3'ers arguing over who has the biggest frame rate wangs.

I agree Cloakers need alot of work though, the first games mechanics simply wont work. "Hey new player, enjoy playing against seasoned veterans who have more counter measures and more idea what youre doing than you do. And your sole gratification is hacking a tower or base for 3 minutes and boomering the first guy who comes to check it out, then running away and hoping not to get 1 shot by someone spamming bullets in every corner your likely to be hiding"

I actually enjoyed being a Cloaker in PS1, but for me is was the none combat choice. The class i became when i wanted to impact the battle beyond killing, and was just as rewarding in other ways. But that simply wont fly anymore.

Expect instant kills, and base sabotage. A cross between TF2 and Brinks cloaker classes.

Personally ive always been a big fan of disguising yourself as an enemy, hiding in plane sight always seems alot more tense to me, and terrorfying to the enemy. Could even have scanners in bases that Cloakers disable to pass unoticed, or an engineer personel scanning device instead of Darklight.

Warborn · 2012-02-14, 12:57 AM

I don't mind the idea of disguises actually. That presents some challenges to the idea of making more stealther-centric objectives as suspicious behaviour can be easy to spot in some cases, and it might have the unfortunate effect of causing a fair bit of teamkilling, but if I had my druthers I'd definitely try cloakers from both the invisibility and the disguising side of things. I certainly agree that trying to fit in disguised as an enemy is quite a tense experience.

Also, the people who outright rejected the very notion of stealther gameplay changing don't matter. I don't mind if people want to bump the thread by telling me how awesome they were at cloakers and how I was just terrible and a noob and that's why cloakers should stay exactly the same.

Traak · 2012-02-14, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by Madlaps

Right... And like you've mentioned, all good cloakers went undetected

You're kidding.

nomotog · 2012-02-15, 06:17 PM

I like the idea id stealth not working well moving, so you have to cheat peek around coroners and move when no one is looking.

The smoke bomb idea is cool. Maybe a flash grenade though? Smoke is heck on the processor.

I don't like the idea that only infiltrators can catch infiltrators. seems kind of counter intuitive to me. I think it should be the engineers role. After all who else will you find defending bases.

Hacking different things is a good idea, but you should add hacking turrets to the list.

Warborn · 2012-02-15, 09:03 PM

Well, the idea of infiltrators hunting infiltrators was something I considered when I imagined what a defensive role for an infiltrator who wants stealth gameplay, rather than strictly sniping or whatever, could look like. I thought being the effective counter to enemy infiltrators might be appropriate. Engineers I imagine would have their hands full doing other stuff, while defensive infiltrators might find themselves with relatively few options. It was more about the spreading out of responsibilities rather than what was intuitive.

As for smoke, I'm not sure. Mass Effect 3's demo and Battlefield 3 seem to do smoke fairly well. Certainly it could be something disastrous if over-used, or so I imagine, but that's partly why I had mentioned keeping the smoke very limited in uses. Otherwise I guess it'd depend on the engine and how it handles smoke. These things are beyond my comprehension as I am not very good with computers.

Hacking turrets is cool. Really I think being able to hack pretty well anything enemy players have built and causing at least some effect is cool. Doesn't have to be a total switch of ownership, but something to reward infiltrators who sneak into enemy positions, anyway.