TTK: Like it faster, or Slower?

[UnknownDT]

Personally I think it needs to be a TINY bit slower. I suppose I wouldn't be up-to-arms if they DIDN'T change it, but I would like it to be slower because afterall... this is an MMO. Not COD/BF3.

[VioletZero]

I like it where it is.

I don't like it slower because then it becomes less of a tact battle and more of a skill battle. And I have no qualms against skill, but heavy skill emphasis isn't right for Planetside.

But not too fast. ;3

[DayOne]

I think it's actually perfect from what we saw in the demo. But obviously we need beta to see how it really is!

[Vancha]

I think the biggest issue is with medics. If people die too quickly, being healed isn't of much concern...Life and death becomes almost binary...An on/off switch.

For medics to be significant, the health bar "buffer" needs to be significant.

The same sort of applies to revival. The harder people are to kill, the greater the impact of bringing them back to life and thus greater reason to make revival take a while. If death is quick then revival needs to be quick, which turns resurrection into wack-a-mole and removes a lot of the risk vs reward of reviving someone.

[Espion]

Slower TTK requires more skill to dominate. When you have a short TTK like in CoD or BF the gameplay degrades into a "who sees who first" metagame, and that's just not attractive at all to players who prefer a game with a higher skill ceiling.

In the GDC videos the TTK seemed ridiculously short, as short or possibly even shorter than BF3 unless a lot of the people he was shooting were already damaged. The longer a battle takes the more skill that is required and atm it just doesn't seem like there is a high skill required to be above average in this game. I'll have to wait to try it before I can really comment, but as impressive as these videos were I can't help but be left feeling a little disappointed. I realize this game isn't even in the running to be considered "esport," and that's fine with me, but I still want to feel like I'm being rewarded for showing a higher level of skill, otherwise it just gets boring too quickly.

But wouldn't faster TTK also promote cooperation? If you didn't know what you were doing, and weren't working with your team, you'd get killed pretty fast.

No, it's actually the opposite. Slower TTK requires A LOT more coordination between teammates in order to meet goals since it's harder for a single player to dominate. It might sound weird at first to a lot of people, but faster TTK = slower gameplay, and slower TTK = faster gameplay due to the increased need for teamwork.

People always reference oldschool games like Quake, UT3, Tribes1/2, etc to get this point across, and they're right, but here's a more recent example of a game going against the CoD-trend, although I guess it still technically falls under Tribes...

http://blip.tv/tribescast/team-zfz-v...tic-m2-6002163

This is only 8v8, and I don't expect the TTK in planetside to be quite as long as TA, but it does get the point across. When you play 8v8 in this game the pace is so fast you get the same feeling as playing 10v40 in a planetside base. Despite the larger map size and lower player count it always feels like there's someone in every corner, and the high speed combined with high TTK rewards skill in almost every aspect. The games are very different but the point is still the same.

The TTKs in planetside1 should be roughly carried over to PS2 and with the reduction in lag it would still feel faster, and keep gameplay at a good pace imo.

[Top Sgt]

I think it's fine how it is now... Super long ttk just gives players a chance to jet pack away once being hit etc.

not we don't need instant deaths but 4 to 5 hits as it looks now is plenty.. Don't want to feel like I am shooting rubber bullets in game.. Add in the natural latency and lag.. it's fine where it is now.

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Vancha

I think the biggest issue is with medics. If people die too quickly, being healed isn't of much concern...Life and death becomes almost binary...An on/off switch.

For medics to be significant, the health bar "buffer" needs to be significant.

The same sort of applies to revival. The harder people are to kill, the greater the impact of bringing them back to life and thus greater reason to make revival take a while. If death is quick then revival needs to be quick, which turns resurrection into wack-a-mole and removes a lot of the risk vs reward of reviving someone.

To be honest the role of a medic is before or after the fight to patch things up. TTK doesn't really change that. It doesn't matter if I have 100 total health or 50 total as long as its back up to 100% before the next fight.

[Espion]

Originally Posted by Top Sgt

I think it's fine how it is now... Super long ttk just gives players a chance to jet pack away once being hit etc.

That's sort of the point in a team based game. Killing is not always the best option, nor is staying alive always the best option. With longer TTKs you have the option to choose which route benefits your team/squad/etc the most, and that adds to both the depth and skill ceiling of the game.

[Sifer2]

I think it needs to be slower. There was barely any guys by Planetside standards in the vids. And yet he was still dropping lightning fast the second someone actually shot at him. It makes me very concerned with how combat will play out when it comes time to push forward an try to take over bases. You wont really be able to move at all when you can die so fast the second you poke your head out.

Granted I don't think he was playing Heavy Assault. But it looked like the actual HA guys were dying fast as hell too. How are we going to actually push through chokepoints? Is medic going to be able to Ubercharge a MAX?

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

To be honest the role of a medic is before or after the fight to patch things up. TTK doesn't really change that. It doesn't matter if I have 100 total health or 50 total as long as its back up to 100% before the next fight.

If the TTK is so short that life/death is practically binary, it doesn't matter whether you're at 50% or 100%.

I'm saying the longer the TTK is, the more it matters how much health you have and the more medics matter.

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Vancha

If the TTK is so short that life/death is practically binary, it doesn't matter whether you're at 50% or 100%.

I'm saying the longer the TTK is, the more it matters how much health you have and the more medics matter.

I suppose you are right. But the argument can be reversed, a longer TTK makes MAX's more insignificant.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

WOW You describe combat as if it should be about the speed of turtles courting. Even in Planetside1, you'd be outflanked and overrun in said "observation and planning".

Hyperbole strawmans aren't your thing, are they? (sarcasm).

Honestly, this really blew me away. I had a harsher response, but decided to take a higher (though not much) road.

I'll just retort with saying you apparently don't understand the difference 0.4 seconds can make for a fight scenario.

But let me explain, I don't like fights being over as soon as they started like in CoD (where I often utterly annihilate my buddies when radar is off, even more so when it's on). Especially if you catch them even semi by surprise. In CoD you kill people so fast, you don't even know WHO you just killed, nor who killed you (especially with the stupid PS3 naming system, but I digress). That's very annoying to me and it's not very interactive, nor challenging.

Like in CoD, with no infantry third person will happen a lot. Everyone has a reaction time and this feels to short for most to get back into cover and have a fire fight last long enough to not feel you shot some AI fodder, but an actual player.

That means things like some cat & mouse gameplay need to exist. Giving chase and being chased in PS1 was a lot of fun and a highly interactive dynamic between two or more players.


Comparing the speed I'd like to see (by slowing it down slightly) to the speed of a turtle does my opinion no justice and only serves to make you look like a troll Evilpig. That disappoints me in you.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

I suppose you are right. But the argument can be reversed, a longer TTK makes MAX's more insignificant.

How so? MAXs would still be carrying increased firepower and would still be used to tank through chokepoints and such. For MAXs increased durability to become insignificant, the TTK would need to be wayyyy higher than in the original Planetside, which certainly isn't what I'm suggesting.

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Vancha

How so? MAXs would still be carrying increased firepower and would still be used to tank through chokepoints and such. For MAXs increased durability to become insignificant, the TTK would need to be wayyyy higher than in the original Planetside, which certainly isn't what I'm suggesting.

Because TTK become insignificant the more people are in the fight. Using 1 max for a choke becomes less significant because 5 people would be shooting him. Increasing his TTK by a second for a 1v1 still only gives him .1 second in a 1v5.

A shorter TTK would mean that max would have a greater chance of getting a kill in that time.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

Because TTK become insignificant the more people are in the fight. Using 1 max for a choke becomes less significant because 5 people would be shooting him. Increasing his TTK by a second for a 1v1 still only gives him .1 second in a 1v5.

A shorter TTK would mean that max would have a greater chance of getting a kill in that time.

I have no idea what you just said.

Why does TTK become insignificant with more people in a fight? Why would more people be shooting a MAX? Why does he only get .1 second? Why is it a 1v5?

If it takes a person 25 seconds to kill a MAX and a MAX takes 4 seconds to kill a person, then he'll only be able to kill one person in a 1v5. If you raise that to 50 seconds and 8 seconds, you've increased the TTK but the MAX will still only kill one person before it dies.

Keep in mind also, that a MAX will be resistant to AI and require AV to be taken down quickly...That's all the more applicable with higher TTKs.