Snipers in PS2 - Page 11

Lord Paladin · 2012-04-06, 01:02 PM

Dont forget the major differences in the games here. PS2 doesnt have some time limit, or spawn counter. Getting the best K/D ratio isnt rewarded in PS nor does it give you bragging rights, and it certainly doesnt help you win. We have a lot more vehicles and aircraft in PS, which snipers arent going to be able to hurt, plus when the fight moves within the facility, snipers will be useless. Plus they probably wont be good against maxes, or as effective against heavy armor.

The gameplay in PS is not going to reward BF or COD tactics like those games do, especially if Higby and the others can find a way to reward the support aspect that the role is capable of. I see snipers prioritizing their targets to take out the rezing medic who is getting the defenders up and keeping infantry from advancing or taking out the engineer who is repairing that max/tank and preventing it from being killed, while spotting targets and giving troop,movement and locations to his outfit as overwatch. Or doing forward recon to find out what the base defense looks like.

This game rewards a whole different style. You wont see the population problems you see in BF because it's not rewarded, and it's less effective with all the vehicles, people coming from every direction (you can't just watch one direction to prevent being flanked), and the larger mix of indoor and outdoor.

Hypevosa · 2012-04-06, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Duddy

As long as the system we end up with rewards patience, learning how the weapon behaves and prevents ridiculousness such as 360 scoping then I think I'd ultimately be happy with it.

I think we can easily avoid 360 scoping by just capping rotational movement. The problem with games like Halo and COD was they let someone set their sensitivity to insane levels that no person using a gun and full armor could accomplish, not even a but naked person can spin as quickly as you can in those games. All you really need to do is have it so the player has a set speed they can turn at, regardless of their mouse sensitivity, depending on how unwieldy their weapon is, and the grade of their armor. Maybe the light infantryman could even get a special upgrade where he gets 2 more jumpjets that he can use by pressing a button that flip him 180 near instantly? Either way, there needs to be a cap on rotational speed. Someone who's scoped in should take a minimum of 3 seconds to turn their rifle 180, and should have to unscope if they want to turn faster.

Talek Krell · 2012-04-06, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Lord Paladin

This game rewards a whole different style. You wont see the population problems you see in BF because it's not rewarded, and it's less effective with all the vehicles, people coming from every direction (you can't just watch one direction to prevent being flanked), and the larger mix of indoor and outdoor.

While that's somewhat true, I think you're overestimating the effect. The extensive landscape will also provide a massive number of possible vantage points and hiding places compared to BF, and while vehicles and MAXes will certainly make life more interesting, a sniper should be able to leverage their cloak and distant location to minimize that problem. Especially if they have the wraith at their disposal again. Hell they could pull a tank themselves if they wanted, it's not like there's only 2 per team.

It should also be noted that the snipers I think most of the people here could do with less of are the ones that tend to ignore the game's reward system. BF doesn't really reward ignoring the points, but a lot of people still camp in bushes on the edge of the field and work on their K/D.

Hypevosa · 2012-04-06, 04:28 PM

I think it's been said elsewhere that K/D stats shouldn't even be shown, and I completely agree - the game should emphasize cooperation and work as a whole and a unit over individual things like K/D. For a sniper, that would just be recording kills on specific enemy types, the only k/d ratio maybe for them would be vs other sniper's specifically to emphasize the importance of counter sniping.

Destroyeron · 2012-04-06, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Aurmanite

If someone is 15 today they probably haven't seen Enemy at the Gates.

The real assclown is the person who tries to lump an extremely diverse group of people together and, like an adolescent, calls that group stupid names.

You don't like snipers? Too bad. Sniping been in FPS's since FPS's been FPS's. Deal wit it.

Excellent movie.

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

I think we can easily avoid 360 scoping by just capping rotational movement. The problem with games like Halo and COD was they let someone set their sensitivity to insane levels that no person using a gun and full armor could accomplish, not even a but naked person can spin as quickly as you can in those games. All you really need to do is have it so the player has a set speed they can turn at, regardless of their mouse sensitivity, depending on how unwieldy their weapon is, and the grade of their armor. Maybe the light infantryman could even get a special upgrade where he gets 2 more jumpjets that he can use by pressing a button that flip him 180 near instantly? Either way, there needs to be a cap on rotational speed. Someone who's scoped in should take a minimum of 3 seconds to turn their rifle 180, and should have to unscope if they want to turn faster.

In Halo your a genetically enhanced superhuman wearing a suit that moves from your thoughts, so totally possible.

COD is just..stupid.

Infektion · 2012-04-06, 05:20 PM

What's wrong with being a sniper and a kill whore? Oh yea... only people who get picked off by snipers get angry. Don't have a cow about it, I love playing sniper, though it wont be my main form of combat in PS2, but I will sure be doing plenty of it, just to annoy people like who started the thread.

Hypevosa · 2012-04-06, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Destroyeron

In Halo your a genetically enhanced superhuman wearing a suit that moves from your thoughts, so totally possible.

COD is just..stupid.

Meh, the one issue I've always had is the fact that the spartan's brains should still be liquefied with some of the things they allegedly do in the suits (I don't remember their brain having any augmentations to prevent that kind of injury).

Kran De Loy · 2012-04-07, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

Meh, the one issue I've always had is the fact that the spartan's brains should still be liquefied with some of the things they allegedly do in the suits (I don't remember their brain having any augmentations to prevent that kind of injury).

There is this really awesome Manga (graphic novel) called Battle Angel Alita that very late in the series solves this.

Some people's brains where swapped out without their knowledge or highly advanced chip systems at the age of 18!

I still recommend reading the series anyway. Don't let the description fool you, it's very heavy on the Action/Sci-fi genre.

"Alita is a powerful cyborg with a soft heart and a mysterious past. Her second lease on life isn't easy: her heart is broken, she gains and loses friends to the cruel world of the Scrapyard far below the Utopian city of Tiphares, and she serves many masters in her quest to protect the innocent and create a new life for herself."

FortySe7en · 2012-04-07, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

(I was first to get Sniper Platinum on Vanu, 2nd overall (damn you Ambient))

"Earth to Auraxis.. it seems the fog up there has made you delusional. Time to come home."

Here is my honest opinion on snipers. Whether or not they are OSOK is a moot point. Regardless of what happens, everyone on these forums, and those who play, will adjust their playstyle accordingly. It happens every time a new game comes out.

SC2 is a perfect example. Every week someone is yelling about a race being IMBA IMBA. Its amazing how a few days later, the meta changes to incorporate those unfortunate circumstances into the gameplay, and POOF, problem solved.

While snipers who can one shot seem fairly imbalanced at first, think about the gameplay. Most of the fighting is done inside, or in a courtyyard where a very specific shot must be lined up. Instead of people running around all the time, most likely vehicle transport will be more of a common strategy.

It all comes down to the doers, and the thinkers. Neither one is superior to the other, but they must co-exist to make this game work. The doers will constantly ram their head into a wall until they find a flaw, and the thinkers will develop a new way around it. This is what made planetside so great the first time, and this is why PS2 will be no different. The community, players, and developers are fantastic people, and I really look forward to seeing you all in game.

Originally Posted by BuzzCutPsycho

Actually the way I play is the right way to play. And that's a fact, Jack.
Thanks for the props though.

I've actually gone back to read all of your posts hoping I would find something you typed that didn't make you sound benighted, but I've apparently failed that task. I stopped taking you seriously after you said CS tournaments banned the AWP. I appreciate your opinions in this thread, and you have a right to them, but spreading false information on these boards isn't going to make you right, and certainly isn't going to help build the community. Just remember, there is always someone online who knows more than you, and is better than you.

So just be nice to everyone k

Coreldan · 2012-04-07, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by SaracenEve

Most of the fighting is done inside, or in a courtyyard where a very specific shot must be lined up. Instead of people running around all the time, most likely vehicle transport will be more of a common strategy.

You are most likely wrong though. Majority of the terrain is not indoor area and we do not only fight at bases anymore. I'd say we might just end up fighting more in the field outside bases rather than in bases themselves.

FortySe7en · 2012-04-07, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Coreldan

You are most likely wrong though. Majority of the terrain is not indoor area and we do not only fight at bases anymore. I'd say we might just end up fighting more in the field outside bases rather than in bases themselves.

I doubt it. There is zero reason to ever be fighting in the open. There are no objectives in the open (they've already stated, outside of faction rallies). Most of the fighting will probably be indoors, otherwise this just turns into a giant capture the flag.

Raka Maru · 2012-04-07, 02:28 PM

PS2 is an MMOFPS, the FPS is often exalted, but because of the MMO aspects of PS2, the following is true.

* Time is not a factor:
I can run around and not have to deal with an angry team or empire if I decide to hang back and shoot from a distance. Calling a sniper useless to your team will not exist (I won't automatically be on your 24 man team). Snipers will be killing enemies period. I can do this 24/7, there is no clock.

* Ratio is not a factor:
I can be 1 of 1000 or 700 of 1000 in the sniper class on that empire. This won't diminish your outfit or squad's footman ratio. I've seen outfits proclaim that snipers or stealth classes are useless, this is fine too. I will not be joining these outfits even when I'm logged in as my other classes. I'll take my MCG and Sniper Rifle and help another outfit/squad that does not have such short sighted leadership.

* You won't be missed:
Rewards, medals, etc... I will be working on these when not actively doing something with my squad/outfit. I will not be missed, and I will not miss you. I don't have to follow your agenda. I don't have to deal with you. When I feel social, I will come back and look for my outfit. When a base push is happening, I will grab my Max or Rexo and rush in with you and put away my Sniper rifle for a bit.

Blackwolf · 2012-04-07, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Thoreaux

The absolute best thing would be if they straight up copied PS1's system. That is, give the bullet significant travel time (realism be damned), and require the gun to be held perfectly still for a second or so before firing (again, realism be damned). This makes sniping a motion prediction task, not a twitch skill, making it a bit more of a cerebral task requiring an investment of practice to get good at.

Also, I am a big, big fan of a 2-shot kill system. 1 shot kills are.... troubling. I like the idea that the first shot provides a warning, and the second shot is the real contest between the sniper and their prey. Did the target go too far from cover? Can you guess where they'll be even though they're zig-zagging? Do they know how to move randomly to throw you off?

What kept snipers balanced in PS1 was the fact that most snipers were not great at landing the all-important second shot, leading many people to regard the bolt driver as a weak weapon. If you could land the second shot reliably, however, the bolt driver suddenly became a very powerful tool. It took time and practice to get to that point, though.

So key points:

Motion prediction, not twitch
2-shot kills
xXxL33t5niperGokuxXx decides to change his name

This.

I'm pretty sure the tank thing will screw outdoor combat all to hell anyway, so I probably won't be sniping much. But it was a specialty of mine in PS1, particularly counter sniping and moving targets. Was not a fan of the tandem sniping tactics used by duos to score instant kills either.

I've seen battles get completely turned around just because of a small shift in the snipers. Tower charges that were failing miserably because of enemies on the walls suddenly broke through and made it to their destination because a few others and myself picked up BDs and started taking out the wall crawlers and enemy snipers.

Hell I suppressed a cave base by myself while my team attempted to punch their way inside. After I think 80 kills and 0 deaths, finally a cloaker managed to sneak up on me while heading back for more rounds. The tell I got was "I guess the fish finally got to shoot back".

Talek Krell · 2012-04-08, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by SaracenEve

Most of the fighting is done inside, or in a courtyyard where a very specific shot must be lined up.

We should be striving to have a more diverse battlefield, and part of that is allowing infantry to be a part of it. One thing I often heard lamented in the original game is that the fighting tended to skip directly from one base to the next, and adding the hex grid was one step in fixing that. I'm not sure what a "faction rally" is, but the world of PS2 is littered with minor capture points.

aleksandrgrc · 2012-04-13, 01:42 AM

out of the box thinking. make it two shot kills, but so two shots can be fired quickly in succession then a reload time. i think the two shot kills for snipers reinforces teamwork but either could work. sniper teams of 2 or 3 coordinating their fire should be the point. not the single or superfluous 10. the ps1/wot aim circle i like a lot. finally being able to see your health is a big thing for me. knowing what targets to finnish are great for the sniper and infil and now they are one. im going to try assassinating everyone on the design team at least once. faithfull TRs aside. just to say thank you in person lol