Gunning Certification

[Tapman]

In the MMORPG.com interview Higby stated that Gunning will be a Certification-based role, knowing that I will be able to continue my favorite activity of firing tank shells while drinking a beer is very exciting. I want to know everyone's thoughts/ideas on the different things you could implement.

Mine so far:

- Advanced Targeting Systems including armor/shields remaining, a lock-on based diagnostic scanner to determine the scanned vehicle's load-out, and a spotting system for the gunner to mark targets that only show up for their driver and vice versa and can be prioritized manually or automatically based on pre-set conditions like least health remaining, driver-only or has-gunner first, closest, etc.
- Reload rate
- Granted access to use the "advanced weapons" that a driver can unlock, not necessarily more powerful but more a variety of strategic options for AV/AI/AA like a low-range flamethrower as an alternative to machine gun for AI (situational trade-offs)
- Enhanced Zoom
- Visual range detection via the Crosshair color, definitive color shift when out of range and varying shades of red for how close it is (I assume target distance in meters will be part of the HUD but this lets you keep an eye on your target)
- Decreased boot-up time for weapons systems when entering the gunner seat
- Gunner can hold a Single vehicle ammunition clip refill kit as an emergency reserve in exchange for a primary weapon which can be used for their own tank without getting out or can be deployed to a different vehicle.
- Ability to bail from a vehicle past the standard damage point-of-no-return

[Goku]

Something along the lines of a advanced gun that can only be used by a tue dedicated gunner would be nice. I'm talking being far more powerful then what you find on either the secondary or primary guns.

[CutterJohn]

Yeah, I spent a lot of time in the gunner seat of a tank, and it would have been nice to be able to focus on that activity more, be able to advertise 'Gunner LFW: Can do this and this and this". In PS1 the only thing you needed to be an optimal gunner was advanced targeting and a glue gun.

[Destroyeron]

I'm thinking it'll mostly be more powerful weapons.

[Xyntech]

The impression I got from that interview was that the dedicated gunner slot variant for tanks would be an optional certification that tank drivers could use if they wanted to only worry about driving.

I like the idea of certs that improve your ability to be a gunner though. Sounds interesting. It would have to be stuff that didn't need to be part of the tank when it was pulled though, so no whole entire turrets or anything visual obviously.

[Infektion]

In the last interview with Higs, I believe I heard something along the lines of unlocking a gunner position, hopefully this plays out into the tanks... single manning/gunning the tanks is dull to me.

[Blackwolf]

Seems like they are paying attention.

The main reason for them opting to have drivers use the main gun was because they paid for the cert in the first place. If they could give drivers a cheaper cert for tanks that they don't have to gun (and provide such tanks for free if the driver pays for the main gun too), as well as providing gunner certs for those who want to gun, that would be cool. It would make less sense, however, if they tacked on additional cert costs for a dedicated gunner sidegrade though.

Specialty side grades might be improved accuracy and maybe even a trajectory imager that predicts approximately where the tank will be when your next shot hits. Basically a little blip showing where you should be aiming.

[EVILPIG]

The plan has always been to have the driver as the "main" gunner and to allow a second player gun the "secondary". The secondary gunner position is supposed to offer more variety and better weaponry. Now, additional gunners on vehicles is being considered as a sidegrade option.

If you want a "Gunner" to be something to cert in, you really have to think about what this does to the baseline. What would certing in "Gunner" do for you? Offer different weapons? Maybe. Make you a better gunner? Perhaps, but to make you a better gunner, they would have to make everyone a worse gunner to start with. If offering improved accuracy is on the table, accuracy in general will have to be nerfed to make it worthwhile.

[Ailos]

Accuracy should never be the subject of a debate in an FPS because hardware-wise, it should always be the same for everyone with the same weapons setup (weapon and addons/sidegrades). You missing something in an FPS should have much more to do with your aim sucking than your weapon being more nerfed compared to a 2-year veteran.

For this reason, I think gunners should be able to unlock additional sidegrades/different weapons for their positions (I like the flamethrower idea, or maybe unlocking specialized ammo, like AP rounds for chainguns or heavier ballistic rounds for AV cannons), not "higher accuracy".

[Blackwolf]

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

The plan has always been to have the driver as the "main" gunner and to allow a second player gun the "secondary". The secondary gunner position is supposed to offer more variety and better weaponry. Now, additional gunners on vehicles is being considered as a sidegrade option.

If you want a "Gunner" to be something to cert in, you really have to think about what this does to the baseline. What would certing in "Gunner" do for you? Offer different weapons? Maybe. Make you a better gunner? Perhaps, but to make you a better gunner, they would have to make everyone a worse gunner to start with. If offering improved accuracy is on the table, accuracy in general will have to be nerfed to make it worthwhile.

Good points. But what if you couldn't gun without the cert? Since drivers can man their own main cannon, why not require a cert for gunners, and give gunners equally powerful weaponry to help balance out that whole armor vs armor problem?

Since 2 tanks with 1 gunner each will always be more powerful then 1 tank with 2 gunners, even if both gunners have weaponry of equal firepower to the two enemy tanks. Twice the armor and two different directions to shoot at means the two tanks have more options for flanking and trading defense.

So if gunners had to pay 1 cert to jump into any gunner seat of any vehicle (this would be a 1 cert buys you everything deal), and were offered additional costs for sidegrades such as advanced zoom, trajectory prediction (a blip showing where you should shoot to hit a moving target, which may not be 100% accurate if the target changes direction) tighter CoF (if the game uses CoF), maybe steadier aim so that the barrel doesn't fly up and down when your driver hits a little bump. All of these things could be compensated for by skill and/or implants but are also optional as extra sidegrades. I might add that pilots couldn't purchase these sidegrades, their sidegrades might be more related to firepower, armor, shields, things that affect the tank's offensive and defensive power rather then the driver's accuracy or possibly even RoF.

Other possible upgrades might be allowing the gunner to perform in-vehicle repairs without exiting the vehicle. Whether or not the player is an engineer, he could potentially offer jurry-rigging and field repairs that are not quite as-good-as-new-but-good-enough types. Hell maybe the gunner with his cert allows his perks to affect the pilot as well, this would give drivers a huge incentive to carry gunners, and even pick favored partners.

[sylphaen]

I like the idea that Higby mentioned where the driver can unlock dedicated gunner and that a whole cert tree branch is attached to it.

It will make dedicated drivers feel like it's an dedication choice being made and not just a quickfix.

[moosepoop]

i really hope that the developers will go through with this idea and implement it. it was a unique, fun, and challenging aspect of planetside1 that i truly love and support.

[Xyntech]

I think gunners being required to cert in it is bad. It will just reduce the number of gunners. Ideally, we should be promoting more gunners, dedicated driver or not. More gunners equals more team work. I'm not against solo MBT's, but I do also want to encourage team work as much as possible even if not outright demanding or requiring it.

Tank drivers will cert in dedicated gunner certs because they either A) want to focus all of their attention on driving (plenty of drivers out there would want this) or B) they just want their gunner to have the most powerful gun possible (the more selfless kind of driver). Possibly both.

Either way, this is a choice the driver needs to make. A driver who wants to control the main gun shouldn't have to put up with just driving because their gunner pulls out their dedicated gunner cert. Nor should a driver be forced to control the main gun just because their gunner wanted to take a standard AA turret.

One of the biggest reasons PS2 has driver controlled main guns is because they devs wanted the drivers to get a lot of return on their investment (that and catering to the CoD and BF crowd). In my mind, those who want a dedicated gunner slot will be getting more than their fair return for their investment in the cert, just in the fact that it is giving them the playstyle they want.

Gunners are just along for the ride. I like the idea of being able to cert in some abilities that give you slight enhancement to gunning, but it would be small stuff at most. It's not their tank. They are glorified passengers.

[Zulthus]

I'm absolutely completely for dedicated drivers and gunners, but I don't think gunners should be able to cert in shooting a gun or gaining abilities for it. It'll turn into one of those things where Player A gets kicked out of the tank because Player B has +10% rocket resistance or something.

[sylphaen]

Originally Posted by Zulthus

I'm absolutely completely for dedicated drivers and gunners, but I don't think gunners should be able to cert in shooting a gun or gaining abilities for it. It'll turn into one of those things where Player A gets kicked out of the tank because Player B has +10% rocket resistance or something.

Just to clear any confusion:
I agree that "gunner cert" is not a good idea (for reasons mentionned by Zulthus and Xyntech)

Now drivers getting a "gunner cert" that unlocks a spot for dedicated gunners on their tanks and more, it's a nice idea.

I just wanted to clarify because "gunning certification" is vague enough to be understood different ways.