Infiltrator == schizo class? - Page 5

headcrab13 · 2012-05-06, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

That is a good thing. There were too many infils in PS1. In PS2 an infil should be a playstyle that isn't as straightforward as grunting. Fallout hacking was fun actually, it made you think... it wasn't just a boring progress bar. And most importantly... gave you a chance to fail utterly. In PS1, the only chance you had to fail was if someone interrupted you.

There are other ways to balance the number of players choosing the Infiltrator class besides making hacking extremely annoying. It's asinine to intentionally make a class frustrating just so people won't pick it.

Think of the challenging part of Planetside's hacking as getting into position in the first place: approaching the base without being detected, moving silently between the tanks and mines in the courtyard, hacking the outer door and sneaking inside past roaming soldiers, creeping cautiously toward the hack room.

This is the kind of "minigame" I prefer when it comes to hacking, and it works exceedingly well in Planetside's setting.

Baneblade · 2012-05-06, 02:33 PM

Hacking is not exclusive to infils.

Figment · 2012-05-06, 02:53 PM

No but infils have to work much harder than you make it seem, getting into a room guarded by 10-50 if not more players (that may even be in the room with you) undetected is a lot more challenging than the part where you finish up. It takes a lot of lives, time, patience, observational and analytical skill, timing and experience to get into that position. You don't do infils justice.

I need to observe the reactions of players in the vicinity, to see if you have to abort, flee, defend yourself (if you even get a chance to).

Hacking empty rooms is not what you can reduce infil work too. It's incredibly stupid, ignorant, insulting and denigrating to do so.

You can't expect visible players to pull off something that hard, even when invisible, as easily. If at all. It is up to the defenders to protect against cloakers.

Besides, if you think there were too many infils, then you did not count the amount of HA, MAX and aircav players. Good infils were very rare. Don't punish us for your hatred and incapacity to fend off assassin type cloakers (For instance, wall plasma grenade throwers or those finishing you while wounded). As stated before, I'm talking about infils, not assassins.

headcrab13 · 2012-05-06, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

Hacking is not exclusive to infils.

The fact that it's not exclusive means your argument makes even less sense. If you're proposing to decrease the number of infils by making hacking a nuisance, then you'd be screwing over every other class that can hack, as well.

All I'm saying is that overall, infs are actually quite well balanced despite being so different from every other class, if not slightly underpowered these days.

Raka Maru · 2012-05-06, 04:48 PM

Infils were good in PS1, still remains to be seen how they will be in PS2. Giving infils, assassin abilities via sniper rifles doesn't automatically increase the usefulness of the hacker role but just adds the assassin role.

We just went through the hacker mini game debate in another thread. Still don't like the idea, as it seems to only fit for a single player game where the mini game is the fun. I still think in planetside, it will distract from the game of getting TO the heavily guarded console and compromising it.

Baneblade · 2012-05-06, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

No but infils have to work much harder than you make it seem, getting into a room guarded by 10-50 if not more players (that may even be in the room with you) undetected is a lot more challenging than the part where you finish up. It takes a lot of lives, time, patience, observational and analytical skill, timing and experience to get into that position. You don't do infils justice.

I need to observe the reactions of players in the vicinity, to see if you have to abort, flee, defend yourself (if you even get a chance to).

Hacking empty rooms is not what you can reduce infil work too. It's incredibly stupid, ignorant, insulting and denigrating to do so.

You can't expect visible players to pull off something that hard, even when invisible, as easily. If at all. It is up to the defenders to protect against cloakers.

Besides, if you think there were too many infils, then you did not count the amount of HA, MAX and aircav players. Good infils were very rare. Don't punish us for your hatred and incapacity to fend off assassin type cloakers (For instance, wall plasma grenade throwers or those finishing you while wounded). As stated before, I'm talking about infils, not assassins.

I don't hate infils... I spend a lot of time playing one. I hate infil scrubs who get in the way.

Baneblade · 2012-05-06, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by headcrab13

The fact that it's not exclusive means your argument makes even less sense. If you're proposing to decrease the number of infils by making hacking a nuisance, then you'd be screwing over every other class that can hack, as well.

All I'm saying is that overall, infs are actually quite well balanced despite being so different from every other class, if not slightly underpowered these days.

My point is, hacking is mindless, it is just a bar filling in another bar. Yet people think you should be able to see behind you while doing it... if all hacking is is you holding one machine up to another... why not just make it a hacking boomer instead of the REK?

Raka Maru · 2012-05-06, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

My point is, hacking is mindless, it is just a bar filling in another bar. Yet people think you should be able to see behind you while doing it... if all hacking is is you holding one machine up to another... why not just make it a hacking boomer instead of the REK?

Certing a REK means you know how to use the sophisticated hacking hardware.
Certing a MCG means you know how to use the sophisticated projectile distribution hardware.

Activating it at the appropriate time is now your concern. When I'm using my MCG, I am facing my enemy. When I use my REK, my back is to him most of the time.

It would actually be useful to have a boomer style deployable hacking device that can be attached to a terminal. Destroyable by opposing faction until it completes the hack. I don't think we need to push for a special 3rd person view, as this "Console Cracker" would take care of it.

Raka Maru · 2012-05-06, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

I don't hate infils... I spend a lot of time playing one. I hate infil scrubs who get in the way.

Sobekeus, who gets to decide who the infil scrubs are?

And again with my MCG example, a player who continually fails in his role as MCGunner dies a lot and decides it is not his role or tries to improve his skill.

Figment · 2012-05-06, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

My point is, hacking is mindless, it is just a bar filling in another bar. Yet people think you should be able to see behind you while doing it... if all hacking is is you holding one machine up to another... why not just make it a hacking boomer instead of the REK?

Because it puts you in a precarious position in and of its own, with a predictable location which (combined with the sound and visual) gives the enemy who normally can't see you a chance to thwart you.

Enemies need to able to thwart you.

If you would not need to be present you might be performing other actions, including offensive actions, including going to the generator and blowing it up, including prepping the spawns, including getting new ammo, including getting to safety, including setting up extra boomers or switching to a weapon, including relocating. All that from just exchanging the REK handheld hack with bar for if you put up an automation.

Please understand that gameplay design is about more than just the bar filling up.

In addition, from the perspective of the player hacking, it's about interaction between a player and the game where when succesful, the player has accomplished its goal. This includes perfoming and control an action. An automation does not provide the same experience. If you make it so a device does stuff for you, YOU do not perform the action. It makes it less personal and the satisfaction will be more like "oh it worked, nice" than "it worked! WOOT! I PULLED THAT OFF AGAINST THE ODDS AND GOT AWAY WITH IT!".

HUGE, EPIC difference. If you ever reseced a CC while half a feet away there are 3 Vanu or TR MAXes and 4-10 HA troops that all can hear and see you and you are personally at risk, then you'd know what the difference if some random device is there doing the job for you.

If you can not see this difference... You missed so SO much of the game. And tbh that I have to explain this to you makes me wonder if when as you say you play infil so much, if you're an assassin or saboteur, rather than an actual infiltrator. Whatever it is, your main job is definitely not the last. You may do it occasionally when the opportunity arises, but you clearly don't see it as a main reason to play as a cloaker or method to take back a base. If I go up against say DT, I know that I stand little chance beating them with my Sweeper Rexo or Agile. However, I know their style of defense got some weaknesses against infils. If I were to try assassin or saboteur against them, I'd fail after one or two kills. By avoiding detection - and I NEED intel for this - I stand a chance and I'm quite sure they enjoy the challenge of thwarting me reaching their CC just as much as I like the challenge of bypassing their security.

That's truly an 'art form' on both accounts.

The mini-game of watching the bar should not be about doing something with the console, but about keeping track of what happens around you, getting into your position and comparing it relative to the enemy, moving and timing your actions with the environment and context you are in. But watching the bar itself is not an objective in and on itself and it would only be a distraction if it required more input without actually being beneficial to the player. It would be an unneccessary extra and gimmicky input that - as said before - would just frustrate the majority of players.

For once I can tell you that the last thing a FPS and Stealth crowd would come to PlanetSide 2 for is mini-hacking games. If anything, it would cause complaints.

From the moment you start your approach on the base, all your efforts are about getting those 20-30 seconds alone with the CC and surviving to make sure that bar reaches the end (and THEN about maintaining it or doing whatever else you can do). To do that, you now and then have to NOT make the bar progress and reset the hack yourself.

That is a cat and mouse game between you and other players, rather than a PVE puzzle game.

HUGE difference.

Raka Maru · 2012-05-06, 08:31 PM

Figment, I have experienced and agree with your concerns. Gotta ask tho, do you really think they are willing to give a single class 3rd person view?

If so, then great, but it can lead to the blatant abuse as before. But this is why I was willing to concede for a device so you can just plant it and can turn around and be aware while the status bar ticks down.

I definitely don't like the mini game idea at the console however. The game is getting to the console and hacking is the end, then escape.

Figment · 2012-05-06, 08:49 PM

I never was against third person in the first place personally. I doubt they would, but they retained third person on aircraft for no reason that does not also apply to other things, so why not?

Not what I'm after per se if there is a good alternative. Situational awareness nerf in a mmofps like ps is a huge deal though. In PS2 with even more potential enemies in the vicinity, it is an even bigger deal.

Sabot · 2012-05-06, 08:56 PM

@Figment, agreed.

No puzzles ffs... it's a fast paced mmofps, not a single player puzzle game. And the hacking was a major part of PS1... those times when you didn't know if you could finish it in time, if someone would walk by just to check or if you were clear... take a chance and you might pull it off, or you might die. And imo both puzzles and 3rd person view would ruin that experience of fooling the entire base force and pulling off the hack without being able to look around a corner thats actually behind you, WHILE you are hacking the CC... it's supposed to be nerve wrecking and it's supposed to be sort of a gamble whether you can pull it off or not. I'm all for gadgets and things to help you out with this... just not magical abilities to see all around you at all times.

Brusi · 2012-05-06, 09:02 PM

I think the hacking system in Brink was pretty good for a FPS, much more interesting than than the sapper from TF2.

A mechanic that worked like Brink, allowing you to quickly deploy a very limited distance wireless hacking device on a terminal which then requires you to interact with your hand receiver (kind of like a young John Conner). With this system you can see in front of you while hacking and even move around a little bit, but if you switch back to your weapon the hack is lost.

Anyway, was under the impression that capturing a base now just worked the same way as in BF3? No special class necessary, no terminals, just more friendlys on the CAP than enemies?

Well, if there is still a place for infiltrators hacking specific types of objectives in bases, then how about something like this?

Suggestion: Team-based hacking (mini-game)
*Involves Multiple 'hack' terminals.
'Hack' the primary terminal (could be as simple as pressing 'g' or a 5+ second bar filling up, whatevs) to gain access to the current Encryption Sequence.

Encryption Sequence displays the order in which the other terminals must be accessed.

Encryption Sequence engines roatate to a new random sequence every ~5 mins.

Multiple infiltrators can coordinate to place themselves close to each terminal and using communication, complete the hack quite quickly.

Alternatively, Lone-Wolf infiltrators can attempt to complete the whole sequence, however it will be much harder as it involves them doing a lap of a base, undetected to complete the randomised sequence.

Captain1nsaneo · 2012-05-07, 02:43 AM

Alright, seems like no one remembers what the Devs actually said about infils so let's review:

Infils will get gadgets such as a camera that can be placed on walls.
There are different kinds of cloak, the ones that allow for sniper and the ones that allow for SMGs.
The cloakers with sniper rifles can't fire while cloaked and have only partial invisibility.
Hacking will work differently than PS1.
There is no wrong way to play a class.

I've played bloodthirsty cloaker, demolition cloaker, recon cloaker, assassin cloaker, hacking cloaker, and support cloaker and I love them all. It should never be about what the cloaker should do but what the cloaker could do. Pigeonholing a class into certain roles such as with or without a squad is just murder to an open world MMO style game. The only thing that should matter is if it's over powered to the point that there is no reasonable counter.

Does your hacking suggestion give the cloaker more or less options? Does it open or close possible gameplay? Classes have already restricted us, the goal should be to not add restrictions but to loosen them up to allow an even wider approach to the game.