Everybody gets to drive everything? WTF? - Page 2

Notturno · 2012-07-05, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Daemonn

Above post.

I just wanted to say I really enjoyed reading that, and I basically agree with everything you've said. I think capping the maximum specialization to a specific percentage of the overall content is a great way to offer veterans an opportunity to feel empowered as long time players, without giving them an option for every single situation that can occur within the game. I believe you also open up the ability to potentially have a "re-certification" process, in which players sacrifice their current certifications in a particular tree, then re-earn the certifications to invest them somewhere else. It gives a potentially infinite progression system where players are always able to "re-cert" into their ideal play style, but they have to earn those certifications by playing.

It's essentially further incentive to encourage playing the game, particularly the sale of experience boosters. I just thought I would highlight that in case any SOE staff members are reading.

Xyntech · 2012-07-05, 04:46 AM

I think it will be good as long as the game is well balanced for it. In the first Planetside, vehicles like the ATV and its variants were balanced by the fact that they were such cheep certs compared to other vehicles. Now, everyone will have access to every vehicle, so the importance of making sure that none of them are too over or underpowered and that all of them have valuable niches is very important.

I think it will be a good thing for support vehicles. From my experience in the early days of the first Planetside, a lot of players didn't cert in AMS's or Galaxies because it took valuable cert point space away from stuff that they liked to use a lot more often, such as tanks and combat aircraft, or even infantry certs. Now a player can spend a majority of their time in any other role, but pull a Galaxy or Sunderer if their squad, outfit, or empire in general really needs it. At least I know I'll do that. I'll probably be spending most of my time and cert points on LA and the Scythe, but I'll be more than happy to fill in on support if it's needed.

Where I see it hurting the most are on ATV's and other formerly certed items which don't have a ton of value on their own merits. ATV's were a cheap cert and even Rexo could ride them, but beyond that and some occasional surprise tactics with some of their weapons variants, they were pretty useless. Only the Wraith had intrinsic value due to it's unique Infiltrator support abilities.

I don't see the ability for everyone to suddenly pull reavers as a bad thing. In the first game, an entire outfit could plan ahead and have everyone cert into them for a night to suddenly pull en mass, but PS2 is speeding a lot of things up. It will still take a decent amount of organization to pull off large scale aircav swarms or MAX crashes, just a little less pre-planning.

Players who don't tend to like flying won't fly very often, while players who love using a MAX will tend to use them a lot. I think that personal preference will play a large part in keeping vehicle usage in check to a similar degree to how it was in PS1. If you really wanted to use a vehicle in PS1, you would just cert into it. If you didn't want to use it, it wouldn't matter if you had free access to it, because you still usually wouldn't use it. Like I was saying earlier about me and support roles, I'll be happy to switch to them as needed in PS2, but I probably still won't use them that much, just because they aren't my thing.

So we'll end up with a few more mass tank or aircav pushes than in PS1, but we'll all be able to counter them with our own free access to units such as AA MAXes. It will be a little different, but we'll get used to it, and I think it will actually even out to being more similar to how the distribution of units was in the first game than some are thinking.

As for the problem of it making some units like ATV's more useless, I actually welcome this. I'd like to see more done to make every weapon, item, class, and vehicle be well balanced and approximately as useful as everything else. I'm not saying to buff an ATV to be as strong as a Lightning, just to make sure there is sufficient reason to consider pulling one instead another vehicle. Preferably more than just costing a minimal amount of resources and sometimes having a cloaking module.

Figment · 2012-07-05, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by Notturno

It's essentially further incentive to encourage playing the game, particularly the sale of experience boosters. I just thought I would highlight that in case any SOE staff members are reading.

Actually it wouldn't surprise me too much that one of the marketing arguments behind the move is that it guarantees more drivers and pilots, thus more chance of selling skins to individuals rather than groups.

If it was the compelling argument, very doubtful, but undoubtedly and understandably a "plus" from SOE's perspective.

Originally Posted by Xyntech

Players who don't tend to like flying won't fly very often, while players who love using a MAX will tend to use them a lot.

All in all agree, but this part should read this:

"Players who don't tend to like flying won't fly unless they need fast transport, while players who are playing defense and hold will tend to use them en mass."

Kalbuth · 2012-07-05, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Notturno

I feel inclined to agree to a certain point.

I firmly believe that the maximum amount of certifications should be capped. I do not believe anyone should be able to certify in every single specialization if they invest the time into it. I believe it gives veterans too much of an advantage and ultimately homogenizes gameplay at the latter end of the game's lifetime. A year or two after release, you will be left with nothing but maxed out characters who have maximum certifications and no weaknesses in their certification tree. This discourages new players from entering the game, as it will take them an exorbitant amount of time to reach veteran status.

I believe that certifications should have a capped amount that one can achieve; it should be a number decided upon by the development team that allows an individual to "max" maybe four "play styles" and an arbitrary number of weapons and gadgets. For example's sake, let's say twenty-five.

[...]

Originally Posted by Notturno

I just wanted to say I really enjoyed reading that, and I basically agree with everything you've said. I think capping the maximum specialization to a specific percentage of the overall content is a great way to offer veterans an opportunity to feel empowered as long time players, without giving them an option for every single situation that can occur within the game. I believe you also open up the ability to potentially have a "re-certification" process, in which players sacrifice their current certifications in a particular tree, then re-earn the certifications to invest them somewhere else. It gives a potentially infinite progression system where players are always able to "re-cert" into their ideal play style, but they have to earn those certifications by playing.

It's essentially further incentive to encourage playing the game, particularly the sale of experience boosters. I just thought I would highlight that in case any SOE staff members are reading.

If they cap certifications, capped player will stop upgrading their caracter, and this is a loss of income for them.
They can't do that.
They want every player trying to reach 100% of the content they put in and potentially buying for it (through direct buy or XP boosters)
If they permit access to only 40% max, they lose income.
Imho that's the key point why they cannot put a hard cap. So we have to deal with it.

Which does not answer the concerns you outlined.
Class system is supposed to deal with the Jack-of-all Trades scenario.
The question we'll have to ask during beta is : does the class system fullfill this role? If not, what to improve?

Figment · 2012-07-05, 06:01 AM

Or you could make multiple characters and have to pay twice or for other things?

Kalbuth · 2012-07-05, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Or you could make multiple characters and have to pay twice or for other things?

You think they would risk a business model on people making multiple caracter to overcome a limitation they put?

Figment · 2012-07-05, 06:14 AM

You think they should risk losing the added income of extra characters considering it won't pay to have multiple characters on the same empire now?

Btw, what if you could cert in everything, but only select X infantry classes and Y vehicle classes (and if it had been separate from suits, W weapon classes) at the same time (ie like with recerting, change only one or two selected things per day of playing for instance)?

FastAndFree · 2012-07-05, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Kalbuth

If they cap certifications, capped player will stop upgrading their caracter, and this is a loss of income for them.
They can't do that.
They want every player trying to reach 100% of the content they put in and potentially buying for it (through direct buy or XP boosters)
If they permit access to only 40% max, they lose income.
Imho that's the key point why they cannot put a hard cap. So we have to deal with it.

They also sell sidegrades and zebra warpaint, maxed out players will still buy those. I wonder what's more popular, cosmetic items or boosters

I would prefer if opening up a tech tree would require an investment in cert points, this feels like another feature that makes vehicles throwavay ablative armor (resource cost notwithstanding)

Or alternatively, this points towards vehicles becoming valid playstíles by themselves as opposed to being infantry upgrades. It just occurred to me that no one made a fuss about people not having to spend cert points to play Heavy Assault or Infiltrator (or I just missed it)

BillyBob · 2012-07-05, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Considering the speed with which people get cert points and that they'll never have to make a definite choice yes.

The problem with this argument is that players won't always be beginners and that this facilitates everyone getting the same super heavy setups.

Being used to something is no reason to not ever get used to something else that might be more balanced or have other perfectly valid arguments for different design decisions in a different context.

It's always funny how PS2 is refered to as "another game from PS1", but when it's related to other games than PS1, it should all be the same to not alienate players...

...Uh...

This whole argument of having to put specialisation in a class doesn't really hold up, because there's not going to be much difference between a specced and a non-specced player, remember? And over time, people get to have everything AND thus be good at everything...

Short term thinking was what got us over 150 CR5s in the past few days in one command channel, 75% or more of which are incapable of thinking because they reached CR5 too fast thanks to their zergfit and the increase in CEP gain (doubled) that became permanent at some point.

I would assume Station Cash or the Pro7 valuta yes.

And over time in an overspecialised unit = a generalist.

So you say it's fine that everyone can make a 'considerable difference' in every role over time (though we'll just have to see how considerable), JUST because it's a long way from now? Okay. Hypocritical, but okay.

You make a lot of assumptions which depend on facts you don't have.

The only things we know at this point, are mere indications based on what SOE devs have said in interviews etc. If anything, they've suggested that the certification point system will be deep, very extensive and allow for a lot of specialization.

They've also said that fully speccing into everything would take years for constant playing. That's not even taking into consideration the regular additions they have said are planned to the certsystem over time.

As for the "there will be no difference between a specced and a non-specced player" speculation (because that's basically all it is at this point), it would first of all completely depend on what you consider to be a valid difference or not.

Again, the devs have stated in interviews that the certification system will offer a lot of specialization and that it will allow you to tailor your gameplay in great detail to your personal preferences...but not in a way as to make the game imbalanced.

This suggests that you're right in that there would be no difference in terms of power or factors that could be considered to cause imbalance, but that it WILL allow for considerable differences in terms of personal gameplay/gamestyle options or when it comes to very specific tasks.

So, what we basically have here, are the comments of the devs explaining how things will work in the game they've made themselves, vs your own completely unfounded outsider speculations on how you think it will ultimately affect the game.

Forgive me if I believe that the devs have a slightly better grip on what's what when it comes to this.

Simple fact remains...not you, me nor anyone else but the devs know enough at this point to make anything but pure speculations about how this will work in detail, let alone any long-term effects it may have on the game.

Now, all I did was speculate as to why SOE would be taking the route they seemingly are with the cert system pertaining to vehicles in PS2. If anyone wants to attack/question that, fine...but when you do, please just keep in mind how little we all know about this in the first place.

Finally, I think the following point might also be worth mentioning when it comes to the cert system:

Even if everyone hypothetically would end up having all the certifications, how likely is it that everyone would be using them in the exact same way all the time?

Any tendencies towards all players using one specific setup for a certain task, may indicate it being overpowered...in which case it's a balance issue which is a completely different matter altogether.

In short, having the same set of equally valid options to select from...doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will pick the exact same one.

/BB

Kezz · 2012-07-05, 02:40 PM

Yeah, everyone gets to drive everything, because that drives specialisation, which drives team play.

Oh, wait.

Masterr · 2012-07-05, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Rivenshield

Maybe I'm just being a reactionary old fart, but this puts me slightly off my feed.

In all modern FPS's anyone can jump into a tank, a chopper, a jet, etc.... but that's for battles that rarely last for more than ten minutes, and then the map resets. In a persistent game like Planetside, I'd kinda like to see us stick with the old system. You get a few free certs to start off with, but you have to make a commitment of sorts. You have to choose whether to spawn or drive a given class of vehicle.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

And on a related note: I have looked, but cannot find, any news on whether or not PS2 will allow us to re-spec our certs. Can we or can't we? or is this another Wait Until Beta issue?

I like the new method. I was actually afraid that if i cert into infantry I would never drive anything. In other words....I would only be playing 1/3 of the game, I want to experiance everything the game has to offer.

Figment · 2012-07-05, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by BillyBob

You make a lot of assumptions which depend on facts you don't have.

Anything I say is based on Higby and other dev quotes. I don't assume anything.

The only things we know at this point, are mere indications based on what SOE devs have said in interviews etc. If anything, they've suggested that the certification point system will be deep, very extensive and allow for a lot of specialization.

Pay better attention: we know more. We even saw samples and we know their intentioned upgrade range difference and you falsely assume we need to research everything to setup the characters the way we want. FULL options takes years. Options in SIDEgrades.

They've also said that fully speccing into everything would take years for constant playing. That's not even taking into consideration the regular additions they have said are planned to the certsystem over time.

And how does that disagree with my mention of us now, 9 years into PS1 having severe issues with br40 and an overdose of cr5s osing everything?

You are a model example of a shortsighted thinker. By postponing the problem a year or more ahead, you pretend the situation won't occur or become commonplace.

And I hope you realise by then you can't take it away from the player anymore, because he would feel stripped of his or her rights.

As for the "there will be no difference between a specced and a non-specced player" speculation (because that's basically all it is at this point), it would first of all completely depend on what you consider to be a valid difference or not.

Which is why I asked you if you thought the 20% difference was enough to call it a specialization that would render them seemingly useless it they do use a role they have access too in a 82,33% of the optimal strength or anywhere in between with a few certs in it.

Again, the devs have stated in interviews that the certification system will offer a lot of specialization and that it will allow you to tailor your gameplay in great detail to your personal preferences...but not in a way as to make the game imbalanced.

Which again is my point: what specialization if you don't get any significant advantage?

You are inconsistent with yourself: one moment you speak of specialization so they can't really be seen as a threat through use of the basic, yet you then continue to say "but they won't be better either". Suiting playstyles is tweaking, not specialising.

So again, what have I said that you don't also say, just that you seem to not understand what you are concluding: make up your mind, is it an advantage that makes the basic dismissable, is it finetuning a class to your liking, or is it like I say, bit of both, but not a HUGE need to do to complete with said class in its basic form?

This suggests that you're right in that there would be no difference in terms of power or factors that could be considered to cause imbalance, but that it WILL allow for considerable differences in terms of personal gameplay/gamestyle options or when it comes to very specific tasks.

So, what we basically have here, are the comments of the devs explaining how things will work in the game they've made themselves, vs your own completely unfounded outsider speculations on how you think it will ultimately affect the game.

So by looking at what the devs said, you conclude I'm right and then call it unfounded?

You have any idea what you are saying at this point?

Forgive me if I believe that the devs have a slightly better grip on what's what when it comes to this.

Simple fact remains...not you, me nor anyone else but the devs know enough at this point to make anything but pure speculations about how this will work in detail, let alone any long-term effects it may have on the game.

This is where you are wrong. Plain and simple: we both know eventually you have all the upgrades you want or need. You are the one keeping yourself ignorant of the facts while admitting the facts. That is one hard position to maintain, please enlighten how you can say it will take years, but its never going to be an issue? You presume far too much that tweaking is needed and that people need full specs acquired over years in order to spam all kinds of units and classes at any moment in time even if they are not optimal.

Now, all I did was speculate as to why SOE would be taking the route they seemingly are with the cert system pertaining to vehicles in PS2. If anyone wants to attack/question that, fine...but when you do, please just keep in mind how little we all know about this in the first place.

I love missing-link argumentation. Shame it is the same argument as "god of the gaps". We know enough to have this particular debate, but you will always insist we need to know more.

Finally, I think the following point might also be worth mentioning when it comes to the cert system:

Even if everyone hypothetically would end up having all the certifications, how likely is it that everyone would be using them in the exact same way all the time?

It is about context and the amount of options available to the player.

Having to make a choice and ensure an advantage in one context, but lose options in other contexts. For instance, not being an engineer at all is very different from now and then being an engineer. Big difference if you can or not wield something permanently or after a class change, which as far as I am aware does not require divine intervention.

Engagements in a game like Planetside and PS2 are about what a player can do with one character over time, not in one life. The typical period to check is one assault or defense till its conclusion, though more generally a play session. Players who don't see a problem tend to think in one duel and lack the insights for looking at the bigger longterm picture and the events leading up to and after that engagement.

Does or did he open terms? Change class to heal those you just killed? Did he get to use a big gun and then changed class again at the local term and got to hack faster too? Etc etc.

Any tendencies towards all players using one specific setup for a certain task, may indicate it being overpowered...in which case it's a balance issue which is a completely different matter altogether.

Is it always? And is it? You assume too much and dismiss too easily.

In short, having the same set of equally valid options to select from...doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will pick the exact same one.

/BB

No but then you can't argue your starting point and maintain your position that you need to specialize for years in anything if it is 'all equaly valid'.

Daemonn · 2012-07-05, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Masterr

I like the new method. I was actually afraid that if i cert into infantry I would never drive anything. In other words....I would only be playing 1/3 of the game, I want to experiance everything the game has to offer.

You would get to experience everything the game has to offer - just not all at the same time. It seems pretty simple - you will have close to 3/4 of everything available to you but that last 1/4 you can't means you need a squad mate or someone else to help you get that done - or play smarter and change objectives and go where you are most effective. Both I feel are better options when compared to becoming a super soldier over time.

If you cert heavily into infantry early on, you'll prolly end up running a lot. But that doesn't mean you can't be part of a squad that rolls armor or is doing inner base holds etc... or even just standing at vehicle pads and jumping in as a gunner for anything that spawns. That is usually a quick way in to combat - especially if you played PS1, you'd know what I mean. I don't want to argue semantics about hypothetical situations but really even infantry certing players will have plenty of opportunities to ride in style with team mates - many vehicles offer gunner and passenger seats.

Further more once you're a few certs into infantry, you could for pretty cheap I'm sure (if it would be equivalent to PS1 cert cost) get a lightning/flash cert and boom - you have a tank or ATV. It wouldn't take more than 1-2 battle ranks. That is probably one session worth of play.

I digress. Beta will tell all, I'm sure our feedback will be heard loud and clear once we get rolling. I return to patiently awaiting entry to "New" Auraxis...

Figment · 2012-07-05, 11:06 PM

Daemonn, if you cert heavily in infantry... You still get ALL basic vehicles. For free. That is what this thread is about. You getting too much choice as a player.

Why would you run more? You would just fight in infantry in a manner closer to your prefered playstyle.

Daemonn · 2012-07-05, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by Notturno

I just wanted to say I really enjoyed reading that, and I basically agree with everything you've said. I think capping the maximum specialization to a specific percentage of the overall content is a great way to offer veterans an opportunity to feel empowered as long time players, without giving them an option for every single situation that can occur within the game. I believe you also open up the ability to potentially have a "re-certification" process, in which players sacrifice their current certifications in a particular tree, then re-earn the certifications to invest them somewhere else. It gives a potentially infinite progression system where players are always able to "re-cert" into their ideal play style, but they have to earn those certifications by playing.

It's essentially further incentive to encourage playing the game, particularly the sale of experience boosters. I just thought I would highlight that in case any SOE staff members are reading.

Yea, dead on man. See the issue might be if SOE Execs see "every player accessing everything means overall pool for more potential store customers to purchase skins, decals, sidegrades for all the great and fun things they always have access to..." More money up front/short term for SOE and then the player base will decline until it levels off, as will store purchases. But now that left overbase will have access to new content as it comes out, no restrictions to access it immediately - steady cash stream because its predictable economics....

Release everything, people will buy things for currently available vehicles, weapons etc, they will stale over time becoming old news, new vehicle or weapon enters the game - people will need to skin/add things to them to match outfits, tastes, combat or trends which is a guaranteed revenue stream. If people had to earn certs or recert to use the newly released items - people may decide they aren't worth it so whatever, no need. Or others will say they dont like how it works or it gets bad player reviews so less people will cert meaning less new skins/store items on that new item. That revenue stream becomes more variable and diminished.

Again..... beta. Truths will be had.

Originally Posted by Figment

Daemonn, if you cert heavily in infantry... You still get ALL basic vehicles. For free. That is what this thread is about. You getting too much choice as a player.

Why would you run more? You would just fight in infantry in a manner closer to your prefered playstyle.

Actually Notturno and I were talking about our opinion on how the cert system should be in our eyes. And my references were mostly to PS1's original system. Basically us saying keep it that way.

If you read my post all the way or more thoroughly, you would certainly see I am talking about a solution to your problem... I was directly addressing the "too much choice" issue.

And actually, you would hoof it more if you were in base fights where the enemy was not yet in the courtyard or interior... you'd have to run to the walls and all around the base while fighting instead of pulling air or armor. And if it was a large fight between two base areas, assaulting with vehicles in between and slowly moving up front lines, you'd certainly be running more if you weren't constantly a passenger/gunner... Did you play PS1?