Driver/Gunners... NO! - Page 12

fod · 2012-07-10, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by TheDAWinz

Its called youtube. And that is not me, its an example. For TrackIR you need to kind of have that kind of FOV

so wheres an example of this 360fov you use?

TheDAWinz · 2012-07-10, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by fod

so wheres an example of this 360fov you use?

Can't find any examples.

Raymac · 2012-07-10, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv

Except it is NOT strictly an FPS. Everybody who keeps saying this is an FPS is at least partially mistaken. An FPS is Doom, Quake, CoD, Gears (kinda, although it's 3rd person). This has FPS elements in it, but all the vehicles and strategy overlay mean it is NOT an FPS. Therefore FPS reasoning is not NECESSARILY the end all.

As for noobs... Yeah, there will be noobs... There always are. And after a few days, they begin shedding their noobness. Why does everything have to cater to noobs at all levels? What's wrong with "Hey, this particular facet of the game, it really works better if you know some people and understand the game"

If something isn't good because it's not NOOB-friendly, then take out sniper rifles, mines, engineering, galaxies, and anything else that's fairly role or skill intensive because the FNG won't know how to do it properly. That's some of the more retarded reasoning I've heard YET.

Planetside is absolutely an FPS first and foremost, it's just a very very big FPS, hence the inclusion of transport vehicles.

Also, I'm not talking about "noobs". I'm talking about players that don't have hours at a time to play the game. The players that only have about 20 mins to jump in the game, shoot a few things, and jump out again. Not everyone has 6 hours a day to play. It's not about being "noob-friendly" which isn't a major crime anyways considering the considerable learning curve for survivial in Planetside.

Bobby Shaftoe · 2012-07-10, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

The tank is an ASSAULT vehicle not a TRANSPORT vehicle. It's that simple.

For people that don't see a problem with the old PS1 style, I have 3 letters for you V-N-G. This can be a major problem for people that are not in organized outfits, and the game shouldn't cater to only us.

And don't even try to say that it removes teamwork because it takes plenty of teamwork to roll an armor column. Period.

It's funny how wrong you are...

I bet you're in favour of the lobotomising of Infantry 'teamplay' with the creation of the medic class, forcing Infantry to go to someone for heals (aka teamwork), whilst at the same time, letting SOLO players sit in vastly more powerful vehicles and perfom multiple roles within those vehicles, do you not see any inconsistency in this, at all? Also, not only are they in vehicles, if they do lose those vehicles, they can hop out instantly and be on a perfectly even footing with the Infantry they were just fighting. I don't understand how the devs decided to implement medics/engineers, yet didn't seem to think of implementing a separate Driver/Pilot class, there's a pretty big distinction between Infantry and Vehicles no?

Remove the Jetpack from LA and give them a choice of SMGs/PDWs with some vehicle repair kits, voila, Pilot/Driver class. If they lose their vehicle, they can fight on at reduced effectiveness compared to those who CHOSE to fight as Infantry.

As has been mentioned, they've obviously been tailoring gameplay for vehicles to be the norm for PS2 fights (viz. open base courtyards, cap points appearing to be no more than 10 metres from any entrance) and 'encourage' people to spend money on boosters.

Baneblade · 2012-07-10, 08:15 PM

I'm split on the driver = gunner thing. While I prefer a synergistic crew, I understand the issues of acquiring PUGs (Pick Up Gunner

). I plan to fully investigate the best way to make use of the Vanguard regardless of whether or not I have to gun it myself while commanding hundreds of members across the battlefield.

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-10, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

Planetside is absolutely an FPS first and foremost, it's just a very very big FPS, hence the inclusion of transport vehicles.

Also, I'm not talking about "noobs". I'm talking about players that don't have hours at a time to play the game. The players that only have about 20 mins to jump in the game, shoot a few things, and jump out again. Not everyone has 6 hours a day to play. It's not about being "noob-friendly" which isn't a major crime anyways considering the considerable learning curve for survivial in Planetside.

It has FPS in it, yes. But it is not exclusively an FPS, no, and the vehicles are not just "for transport". I'll agree, at present, PS2 is MORE like an FPS now than PS1 ever was, but if people want to play an FPS, there are lots of them out there. Many of us don't want "CoD with space lasers and tanks"... We want Planetside, or at least the things that made it "it".

I'm not opposed to change. I've already said I'm newish to PS1, and there are things about it I don't like (many of which are fixed in PS2) but there are other things that make it different from the other games (which is why I convinced myself to sub). And I want to keep those things. Catering to the fast paced/CoD bunch, imo, is a mistake. I don't play CoD, because I don't like it. If increasing SOE's revenues means catering to the "larger number", then I would say to them to take a hike and urge SOE to accept a lower profit margin. PS1 couldn't have done too bad, those people didn't look like starving North Koreans and they were able to gather the funs for a sequel which probably cost lots of millions of dollars.

Well, you said VNG, which I assumed meant "very new guy". Related to casual players... That's fine. I don't have a problem with casual players. I am one myself. But I fail to see how much time a person has available has to do with whether or not they should be able to Rambo a battle tank. If you don't have time to go on a lengthy Gal-drop... then don't go on one.

If you just want to get in and blow some shit up, do so. But it's stupid to say "this multi-crew tank needs to be a one manner that way I can jump in it for a few minutes by myself!"

I just mean, it's not a valid stance for argument.

Originally Posted by Bobby Shaftoe

It's funny how wrong you are...

I bet you're in favour of the lobotomising of Infantry 'teamplay' with the creation of the medic class, forcing Infantry to go to someone for heals (aka teamwork), whilst at the same time, letting SOLO players sit in vastly more powerful vehicles and perfom multiple roles within those vehicles, do you not see any inconsistency in this, at all? Also, not only are they in vehicles, if they do lose those vehicles, they can hop out instantly and be on a perfectly even footing with the Infantry they were just fighting. I don't understand how the devs decided to implement medics/engineers, yet didn't seem to think of implementing a separate Driver/Pilot class, there's a pretty big distinction between Infantry and Vehicles no?

Remove the Jetpack from LA and give them a choice of SMGs/PDWs with some vehicle repair kits, voila, Pilot/Driver class. If they lose their vehicle, they can fight on at reduced effectiveness compared to those who CHOSE to fight as Infantry.

As has been mentioned, they've obviously been tailoring gameplay for vehicles to be the norm for PS2 fights (viz. open base courtyards, cap points appearing to be no more than 10 metres from any entrance) and 'encourage' people to spend money on boosters.

They're encouraging zerging and selling skins to more vehicles.

Highwind · 2012-07-10, 08:27 PM

I'm pro driver gunning. I will admit that just driving can be a full time job in some cases, that is it supportive in nature, and can be the game play style some desire (losing that "gameplay style" is the only real loss here). On the other hand, driver gunning doesn't mean one man main tanks everywhere, in fact it makes 2 man tanks all the more effective while making one man tanks only foolish rather then worthless like PS1 without a gunner.

Driver gunning also raises the skill cap for what it means to be a fully operational tank by adding to the driver's required actions, which I think is a big plus. Driving and gunning at the same time is hard, but not undo-able and with practice for example not every PS1 lightning driver is a stop and shoot tin can even though the vehicle by design is weak. In the future a tank with a skilled driver/gunner AND secondary gunner team should be just as much if not more of a threat on the battlefield then PS1 tanks because both have room to "out skill / out shoot" their opponents tilting the battle in their favor more predictably then a lesser skilled team, I would hope.

I view "driver gunning" as demanding more of that player, and for me got my attention to the point that I can totally see my self being a prowler driver in my top 5 classes/vehicles cert wise (because you will need to use them all imo) as opposed to none at all and just gunning for someone else adding to the lack of tanks on the field like we see in the aged PS1.

I think added complexity is a good thing, and while it might look like a solo players dream to main gun a battletank (which is a positive too in my mind, like during low pop late night hours you can still run a tank) I think it also benefits any player willing to step up to the challenge of doing both jobs well, while making similar judgement calls as PS1 Drivers in terms of keep your 2nd gunner in range, or making the call to retreat or hold your ground etc.

I can't wait personally.

Raymac · 2012-07-10, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Bobby Shaftoe

It's funny how wrong you are...

I bet you're in favour of the lobotomising of Infantry 'teamplay' with the creation of the medic class, forcing Infantry to go to someone for heals (aka teamwork), whilst at the same time, letting SOLO players sit in vastly more powerful vehicles and perfom multiple roles within those vehicles, do you not see any inconsistency in this, at all? Also, not only are they in vehicles, if they do lose those vehicles, they can hop out instantly and be on a perfectly even footing with the Infantry they were just fighting. I don't understand how the devs decided to implement medics/engineers, yet didn't seem to think of implementing a separate Driver/Pilot class, there's a pretty big distinction between Infantry and Vehicles no?

Remove the Jetpack from LA and give them a choice of SMGs/PDWs with some vehicle repair kits, voila, Pilot/Driver class. If they lose their vehicle, they can fight on at reduced effectiveness compared to those who CHOSE to fight as Infantry.

As has been mentioned, they've obviously been tailoring gameplay for vehicles to be the norm for PS2 fights (viz. open base courtyards, cap points appearing to be no more than 10 metres from any entrance) and 'encourage' people to spend money on boosters.

What was the name of the Driver/Pilot class in PS1? From what I can remember from playing the other day, you could drive any vehicle in Agile armor. You seem to be saying they are removing something that was never even in PS1.

Now, since you asked, I would prefer it if Heavy Assault couldn't pilot vehicles except for the ATVs, but that's just me.

As for the Vehicle combat vs. Infantry combat, I believe the devs have stated that their goal was to make it about 50/50 which sounds good to me. I grew extremely bored of the same clausterphobic stairwell battles over and over again. (but that is a whole other thread)

If you're trying to argue that having tank drivers control the main gun is part of some vast conspiracy to "'encourage' people to spend money on boosters", that is so out in left field I don't even know how to respond.

Purple · 2012-07-10, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by RadarX

I believe Matt Higby has addressed this a few times. While the potential for gunners in certain vehicles is a possibility, many vehicles will have the driver as the gunner. This is the design system the dev team has chosen to utilize at this time.

there will be a driver and a gunner when buggys make it into the game right?

Oranos · 2012-07-10, 08:33 PM

This is the one thing I dislike about PS2.

Sitting on Skype and coordinating with a friend to effectively gun a Vanguard was something that made PS1 so great. I got to focus on positioning and calling out enemies for my gunner, while he focused on blowing shit up.

I feel that they are giving 1man too much power by letting him drive an MBT on his own, it was the main reason BFRs were so hated. The argument about needing a gunner for the AA weapon is rubbish, MBTs never needed them before, it's not like you'll be alone, needing support is what PS should be about.

If you want to drive a tank on your own, grab a Lightning. Seeing all those 1/2 tanks driving around on Higbys stream yesterday was depressing.

sylphaen · 2012-07-10, 08:35 PM

Over the years, I met my share of bad gunners (but since I was the driver, it never lasted too long). On the other hand, I have also met exceptional gunners and enjoyed great times with them.

You will never share as much with a pick-up gunner than with someone you took time to know better.

Some of you talk about playing an "FPS" experience; what I enjoyed with dedicated drivers was sharing an experience. The fun is a lot more intense when it is shared and by then, winning or K/D is your least worry, it's just a part of the shared experience.

____________________

May come what comes, it does not matter in the end:
Some will play PS2, some will not.
Some will love PS2, some will not.
SOE will have its new customers and if they make mistakes, they will go. Free to play ! Live by the sword, die by the sword !

The sheer ambition of this dev team and PS2 should be applauded !

Now concerning Figment's post, the one-man tanks to boost customization transactions makes a lot of sense, business wise.

In just time, we'll see how things play out.

Raymac · 2012-07-10, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv

Well, you said VNG, which I assumed meant "very new guy". Related to casual players... That's fine. I don't have a problem with casual players. I am one myself. But I fail to see how much time a person has available has to do with whether or not they should be able to Rambo a battle tank. If you don't have time to go on a lengthy Gal-drop... then don't go on one.

With all due respect, that kind of shows how out of touch you are with one of the root problems of having a tank driver only. V-N-G was the voice macro for "We need a gunner." which you would have to spam for sometimes a very very long time in order to find someone to jump in your tank and gun for you. Sitting around waiting and begging for a gunner is not fun gameplay.

Traingye · 2012-07-10, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv

As I said previously, I understand the need for money to pay for their livelihood and for the development of future games... But I dislike the "selling out" prostitute mentality so many developers take (not necessarily referring to SOE, just in general).

It's not really selling out or prostituting. SOE is first and foremost a company. As such they only reason they exist is to make money. They sell products and they need to make their products appealing to the most people they can. Every company does this. If you really consider this "selling out" then that's something every company ever does.

Keep in mind here that there is a wide variety of players who will play this game. SOE will never be able to make everyone happy with each design decision they make. They will go with the ones that they think will make the most people happy, because of what I said above.

Also, and this goes more than just you, this is a very complex game. Just because there is one aspect of it you don't like or could be better does not mean the entire game is bad. Try not to dump the entire thing before it's even in beta.

Furber · 2012-07-10, 08:40 PM

I know this was discussed to death a while ago, and it seemed as though we had reached a conclusion. In early April I believe, Higby mentioned in an interview that there would (probably) be a cert that allows a tank to have a dedicated driver and a dedicated gunner. However, there hasn't been any follow up on that, and it doesn't seem very apparent that it is in game, or that it is coming. I for one hope that I'm wrong and they are in fact planning on putting that in the game, it would be a great compromise instead of deciding one way or the other.

The argument of "You pay the certs so you should control the main gun" seems a bit flawed. I think it should more accurately be "You pay the certs so you get the choice". If they add in the dedicated cert, this will solve the issue.

sylphaen · 2012-07-10, 08:43 PM

"You pay the certs so you get the choice". If they add in the dedicated cert, this will solve the issue.

For greater justice !

Originally Posted by Oranos

it was the main reason BFRs were so hated

One big reason they are still bad post nerfs is that they can hold way too much ground alone.

I don't know if you've ever been in a magrider vs. that OP NC BFR canon but since it's impossible to get in range (because the particle canon is so damn powerful), you have to make a detour the size of a SOI to avoid it.

This totally disrupts a vehicle fight: it forces it to become more static and to mix in troops/aircav. Assuming the enemy have an equivalent amount of troops/armor/AA, BFRs (especially the NC AV one) are stalemate machines.

At least, the VS could go over water... Not sure how it feels for the TR (their prowler also has more armor than the mag).

One vehicle should never have such powerful area denial.

Also, and this goes more than just you, this is a very complex game. Just because there is one aspect of it you don't like or could be better does not mean the entire game is bad. Try not to dump the entire thing before it's even in beta.

Very good point to which I agree. I think I'm not the only one who said they might abandon driving ground vehicle to favor soldier/aircav gameplay instead. I tried to play in vehicles in BF2142 but it was boring me to death (the support class on the other hand

). If I get the same feeling in PS2, you simply won't see me in a ground vehicle as I'll be having fun capturing points !