Gun Control - Page 2

Baneblade · 2012-07-21, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

I cannot even imagine a situation that a normal person could find themselves in where a hunting rifle or a handgun wouldn't do the trick.

That is exactly the point. We can't predict the future, so why cut our balls off because we don't know we shouldn't?

TheDAWinz · 2012-07-21, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju...ation_Movement

There's the Wiki page on this so-called triumph of armed citizens. They got massacred, and although the army initially withdrew after they fired back with military-grade weaponry and LMGs, once reinforcements arrived they curbstomped the militia.

Firearms are completely fucking pointless as weapons to fight the government with. You will not beat guys trained to use military firearms, packing grenades, machineguns, body armor, night optics, and supported by armored fighting vehicles, tanks, and helicopters. The fantasyland nonsense where American citizens overthrow their government is absurd, and although maybe in the 18th century such a thing were possible, these days you people would be bombed by a drone and the fighting would be over in an instant.

Your avatar pisses me off, it makes my eyes bleed every time i look at it.

**Malorn** · 2012-07-21, 07:58 PM

Meh.

Figment · 2012-07-21, 08:53 PM

Well at least it's not Sparta then.

Accuser · 2012-07-21, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju...ation_Movement

There's the Wiki page on this so-called triumph of armed citizens. They got massacred, and although the army initially withdrew after they fired back with military-grade weaponry and LMGs, once reinforcements arrived they curbstomped the militia.

Indeed they did. And it wasn't their limited combat prowess that won the day, it was their spirit and desire to die on their feet rather than live on their knees. Also from the wikipedia page:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

The Gwangju Democratization Movement had a profound impact on South Korean politics and history. Chun Doo-hwan suffered popularity problems because he took power through a military coup, but after authorizing the dispatch of Special Forces upon citizens, his legitimacy was significantly damaged. The movement also paved the way for later movements in the 1980s that eventually brought democracy to South Korea. The Gwangju Democratization Movement has become a symbol of South Koreans' struggle against authoritarian regimes and their fight for democracy.

Perhaps you can explain your perspective a bit, Warborn. Do you believe (contrary to the entirety of human history up to this point) that your government will never become oppressive? That there will never be an invading force on your shores? You think this is 100% impossible sometime in the next 50 years, 100 years, or 1,000 years?

Maybe you think that the masked vigilante named "V" will come and overthrow that government for you. Maybe you think that the U.N. will come riding over the hill on your behalf. But if you think that the present peace will somehow miraculously last until the end of time, I'm afraid it's you who is living in a fantasy land. Some day, hopefully not soon, my descendants will appreciate every rifle and round they have at their disposal. I will not allow those tools to be denied them.

**Malorn** · 2012-07-21, 10:20 PM

Meh.

Figment · 2012-07-22, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Also worth pointing out - Illinois and Chicago in particular have among the most strict gun laws in America, yet they have an out of control violence problem with gangs and shootings with a murder rate an order of magnitude higher than other parts of our country.

Meanwhile, the State of Utah enjoys fully automatic weapons and the lowest violent crime in America, rivalling Canada and many European countries.

If you think gun control will reduce crime you're a very stupid person.

How many people live in Utah and what's the population density again? Let's see!

2.8 million people, the 34th most populous state of the US, 95% white and a funny population density:

So you're saying every state is demographically and geographically exactly like Utah?

And what's the unemployment rate in both areas? Illinois is an industry dependent state, Utah is not dependent heavy industry. So they're not really comparable. If you look at Europe, you got all sorts of high pop density's with next to no crime, certainly no major gun crime.

Guess where the densest population area in Europe is? Netherlands, Belgium and western Germany. Which should have made it hardest on us to control gangs, right? Thing is, our gangs don't have easy access to weapons. Not from within the nation, not from nearby nations. We don't have the same violent gang culture like the US does, simply because it's not possible. Are there illegal guns? Yes, but they have to be imported from the Balkans.

Where exactly do your gang crime weapons stem from? If you can buy the weapons in a state next to you with no issues and no questions asked or import them en mass with ease. Meaning severe ease of illegal importation issues, it's almost pointless having strict weapon laws to control gang violence if the remainder of the country doesn't help you ban weapons.

Oh and btw, Chicago allowed people to keep their guns if they already bought them pre-1982. Meaning it's a state that tried a compromise with a gun freeze, not a gun removal and guns per populace are relatively high still. Meaning they never really disarmed despite of new weapons being very hard to get.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...o-arizona.html

Note that they made a list of gun deaths per 100.000 residents and then added an indication of facilitation by the state itself. It would be nice if it indicated a facilitation by surrounding states too. Turns out the least deadly states have some of the strictest laws.

And as you can read here, most of those gun crimes in strict gun states are weapons obtained cross-state. Basically: states like Utah are the problem of strict gun law failure, not the solution.

**Malorn** · 2012-07-22, 04:56 PM

Meh.

Hamma · 2012-07-22, 05:25 PM

Another thread where people cherry pick stats to support gun control. Good times..

Originally Posted by Malorn

You'd have to pry my firearms from my cold dead hands before I'm giving up my right to defend my family and property.

And if a few citizens had legal firearms in that theater we would be talking about how the right to carry saved lives. Instead, nobody was carrying and people in their infinite stupidity want to enact laws to keep it that way. It's madness.

This. The theater also had firearms banned look how that worked out.

Vash02 · 2012-07-22, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Hamma

Another thread where people cherry pick stats to support gun control. Good times..

This. The theater also had firearms banned look how that worked out.

It's also another thread where people who make doom and gloom arguments about gun control completely ignore countries that have gun control and aren't being overrun by nut jobs on murderous rampages or organised crime.

TheDAWinz · 2012-07-22, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Vash02

It's also another thread where people who make doom and gloom arguments about gun control completely ignore countries that have gun control and aren't being overrun by nut jobs on murderous rampages or organised crime.

Hmm. Russia, Italy, Poland, France. All countries overrun by nutjobs. Oh and Norway.

Warborn · 2012-07-22, 08:39 PM

Yeah, Norway had one murderous rampage and suddenly it's overrun. If only those teenagers were all carrying pistols at their summer camp, right?

Originally Posted by Accuser

Perhaps you can explain your perspective a bit, Warborn. Do you believe (contrary to the entirety of human history up to this point) that your government will never become oppressive? That there will never be an invading force on your shores? You think this is 100% impossible sometime in the next 50 years, 100 years, or 1,000 years?

If my government needs to be overthrown, it will be done so with the aid of the military and police, at least in part. A revolution cannot succeed without support from the people who're packing the real heat. Even if Canada had the most liberal firearm laws on the planet, it wouldn't be enough. A Carl Gustav in my basement isn't going to be enough to take out Leopard tanks or fleets of LAV-III's.

This is the bottom line here. Pistols, assault rifles, these are children's toys in warfare. A government fighting for its existence will use artillery, air support, armored vehicles. You cannot beat these things with small arms.

Originally Posted by TheDAWinz

Your avatar pisses me off, it makes my eyes bleed every time i look at it.

TheDAWinz · 2012-07-22, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

Yeah, Norway had one murderous rampage and suddenly it's overrun. If only those teenagers were all carrying pistols at their summer camp, right?

If my government needs to be overthrown, it will be done so with the aid of the military and police, at least in part. A revolution cannot succeed without support from the people who're packing the real heat. Even if Canada had the most liberal firearm laws on the planet, it wouldn't be enough. A Carl Gustav in my basement isn't going to be enough to take out Leopard tanks or fleets of LAV-III's.

This is the bottom line here. Pistols, assault rifles, these are children's toys in warfare. A government fighting for its existence will use artillery, air support, armored vehicles. You cannot beat these things with small arms.

Thats fucking ugly

Figment · 2012-07-22, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

You really are quite naive.

Naive with informed opinion based on evidence beats being a paranoid, anti-authoritarian, deliberately evidence ignoring fanatic.

Originally Posted by TheDAWinz

Hmm. Russia, Italy, Poland, France. All countries overrun by nutjobs. Oh and Norway.

And how many of those countries have the strictest gunlaws?

You name Russia, who has next to no restrictions, Italy, who have poor and corrupt politicians and a maffia problem that leads back to the medeval times and lies close to Albania and other Balkan areas where weaponry are readily available since Yugoslavia imploded, Poland, Norway and France, all having lower murder rates than the US, despite France being quite leniant wrt northern Europe. Poland being better yet far poorer than other nations, Norway having had one madman in all history compared to the US where there is one every year or two years.

Hmmm...

Baneblade · 2012-07-22, 11:36 PM

Fine, Baneblade will play the Swiss Card. Jebus Frackin Kriest.