Israel - Page 8

Figment · 2012-08-08, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Necronile

Again,what is it to gain from forcing the Palestinians into submission?
And dont tell me resources,because there are no resources to gain from those specific territories.

Land. And time to 'legally' obtain it subtly through grandfather rights, basically. For instance, they want to have full say over all of Jerusalem, much like the Palestinians, who want to settle at half the city. To strengthen the Jewish claim on Jerusalem, more and more small bits of territory around Jerusalem and other areas are virtually annexed piece by piece (see map I've posted before).

Same thing I can say about Palestinian and other arab people.
If I am brainwashed by ideology they are also brainwashed,thats what we learned through history...

I believe everyone says both sides are not just trying (and in many cases succeeding) to brainwash, but pretty damn badly too. Nobody here has claimed one sided brainwashing or one sided baddies.

and its kind of stupid for you to say its biased one sided struggle when you only concentrate on what happend to the palestinians only and not the ****.

See above. You're putting words in people's mouths to strawmen them.

I would advise both you and Neurotoxin to read this without going "OHHH THEY DID IT" at the first sign of one side doing something:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

Both sides are to blame for the Palestinian refugees, both sides stimulated the Palestinians to leave their homes, be it for different reasons and with different goals in mind.

Neither side wants to take responsibility for them. Basically, they've been screwed pretty badly, some of which self-imposed. Some after all considered it a calculated risk and expected the **** to, as Nasser put it "be driven into the sea" swiftly. To blame it all on the Arabs is too much. To blame it all on the **** is also out of line.

To blame all of it on ethnic and religious hatred, egomaniacs and bigotry, now you're getting somewhere.

Sgt Shultz · 2012-08-08, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Neurotoxin

One last detail for anyone who cares, I organize with ANSWER Coalition to defend the rights of all oppressed people to self-determination within their own country, as well as fighting to end Apartheid wherever it exists in the world, and that isn't all ANSWER does either. Click the link and read up on Palestine from a different perspective than the Zionist pro-Israel narrative.

You organize with ANSWER and you expect anyone to take your view points seriously? Supporting socialists back in the 50s and 60s was excusable due to lack of information about the results of socialism. However in this day and age where the terror and hell on earth it created is well documented, I can't even fathom the level of intentional ignorance one would have to summon to endure a Marxist.

Warborn · 2012-08-08, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Necronile

Again,what is it to gain from forcing the Palestinians into submission?
And dont tell me resources,because there are no resources to gain from those specific territories.

They want Israel for themselves and want the Palestinian problem to go away. Their handling of the Palestinians makes them look like shit internationally. It is a major nuisance for them. So if they could convince all the Palestinians to leave and go to Jordan, or to surrender all claims to the Palestinian occupied territories, or to otherwise make some deal that'd finally cede the area to Israel, then the Israeli government would have a big, ongoing burden lifted from it.

Necronile · 2012-08-09, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Land. And time to 'legally' obtain it subtly through grandfather rights, basically. For instance, they want to have full say over all of Jerusalem, much like the Palestinians, who want to settle at half the city. To strengthen the Jewish claim on Jerusalem, more and more small bits of territory around Jerusalem and other areas are virtually annexed piece by piece (see map I've posted before).

I believe everyone says both sides are not just trying (and in many cases succeeding) to brainwash, but pretty damn badly too. Nobody here has claimed one sided brainwashing or one sided baddies.

See above. You're putting words in people's mouths to strawmen them.

I would advise both you and Neurotoxin to read this without going "OHHH THEY DID IT" at the first sign of one side doing something:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

Both sides are to blame for the Palestinian refugees, both sides stimulated the Palestinians to leave their homes, be it for different reasons and with different goals in mind.

Neither side wants to take responsibility for them. Basically, they've been screwed pretty badly, some of which self-imposed. Some after all considered it a calculated risk and expected the **** to, as Nasser put it "be driven into the sea" swiftly. To blame it all on the Arabs is too much. To blame it all on the **** is also out of line.

To blame all of it on ethnic and religious hatred, egomaniacs and bigotry, now you're getting somewhere.

I agree with you that both sides are to blame for the problems now,but there wouldn't be this problem of territory if the palestinians agreed with the first plan to divide the country to jewish and arab states in '48.

Figment · 2012-08-09, 03:34 AM

The problem is you never asked them then and just did your thing quickly to make sure they didn't beat you to it. And apparently you don't realise you are basically asking them to part with something on the same level as Mecca and the St. Peter. And I'll readily agree they may not have acted understanding nor welcoming at the time at all so that this may have been one of the only ways to get exactly what you wanted without compromise, but it was always going to lead to war.

It was a stupid thing and way to do it then. Had their been an agreed upon plan in advance, things might have gone different. Question of course is whether the Palestinians would have ever accepted a Jewish state or influence on their state, or a state with both religions treated as equal.

It just was a plan that was probably always going to go bad fast. :/ Tbh, if you had managed a secular state, perhaps a federal state, with fair guarantees for all religions regarding holy sites... Too late for that now though.

Baneblade · 2012-08-09, 07:49 AM

In fairness to the Palestinians, they were there first (both times), they haven't done anything any of us wouldn't do in their position, and the **** didn't need special treatment Holocaust or no.

Necronile · 2012-08-09, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

The problem is you never asked them then and just did your thing quickly to make sure they didn't beat you to it. And apparently you don't realise you are basically asking them to part with something on the same level as Mecca and the St. Peter. And I'll readily agree they may not have acted understanding nor welcoming at the time at all so that this may have been one of the only ways to get exactly what you wanted without compromise, but it was always going to lead to war.

It was a stupid thing and way to do it then. Had their been an agreed upon plan in advance, things might have gone different. Question of course is whether the Palestinians would have ever accepted a Jewish state or influence on their state, or a state with both religions treated as equal.

It just was a plan that was probably always going to go bad fast. :/ Tbh, if you had managed a secular state, perhaps a federal state, with fair guarantees for all religions regarding holy sites... Too late for that now though.

The federal state proposal was denied by both sides I think..so yea...
Problem is that two religions would never get along,they might look like getting along,but tension will allways be there.
The situation here is phucked up.
and Baneblade
Its kinda harsh to hear from you saying ''holocaust or not''...
after that kind of tragedy the whole world (most of it I think) thought the **** deserved their own state.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-08-09, 09:36 AM

It wouldn't be a problem at all if there was no such thing as a '***' or a 'muslim'. They'd all just be 'semitic'.

The problem is religion. At it's core. If this conversation strays from that it's beating around the bush. The **** are on top and so the muslims are getting the stick. If it was the other way around, the **** would be getting the stick. Simple as that.

Necronile · 2012-08-09, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

It wouldn't be a problem at all if there was no such thing as a '***' or a 'muslim'. They'd all just be 'semitic'.

The problem is religion. At it's core. If this conversation strays from that it's beating around the bush. The **** are on top and so the muslims are getting the stick. If it was the other way around, the **** would be getting the stick. Simple as that.

I have to agree with that

BuzzCutPsycho · 2012-08-11, 08:44 AM

I'm glad we can all agree that the **** are once again the cause of yet another of the world's major problems.

Warborn · 2012-08-11, 09:58 AM

What previous major world problems would you say **** are responsible for?

Necronile · 2012-08-11, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Warborn

What previous major world problems would you say **** are responsible for?

Dont mind him he is probably trolling

Kyonye · 2012-08-11, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Vreki

Also bear in mind that they USA simply can not have as tight cages, since a large portion of their own citizens would be unable to squeeze through.

Oh man that made me laugh. It's so true. Every time I see an extremely overweight person, I cringe. I am well versed in physical education, and I always offer FREE consultation/help to anyone who wants to lose weight and better themselves... never happens. It also doesn't help that I live in Texas and they currently have two cities on the top 10 list. Surprised they aren't on the top 10 states list.

As for this debate. I'm pro-Israel. I understand that both sides can be placed at fault. In terms of media coverage, they tend to be more sympathetic towards the Palestinians. Many times articles are printed without ultimate fact checking.

Overall, that is the current model of world media. Lie first, continue to ignore facts.

Figment · 2012-08-11, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by BuzzCutPsycho

I'm glad we can all agree that the **** are once again the cause of yet another of the world's major problems.

I'm glad we can all agree you haven't read a single post in this topic nor understand a single one of the arguments since you don't want to read nor understand a nuanciated argument.

MightyMan · 2012-10-12, 11:05 AM

So, the only reason I necro-bump this is to bring this to closure and this is the last I'l post anything on this thread.
Last time I was here was like 2 or 3 months ago. As always I have spent an hour of my day maintaining this thread and shouting at those who in my opinion had a wrong idea of the conflict. After an especially stupid argument with my purple gorilla friend, I just gave up and rage quit not only from the thread but the forums at general, a thing that I regret and ashamed of.

You see, I came to a conclusion that no matter how much I or anyone else argues with each other on this or a similar subject with two clear view points (save for a small amount of smart asses

) always go the same, someone says something bad about one side, and the other replies by countering the claims and says something bad about the second side.
Now the fact is that no matter what anyone says, they will never change the other side's opinion because both sides will always be sure that the other's side views are biased and false, which results with nothing but a pointless waist of time.

This is why I ask you to never start threads like this, because they serve as nothing more then an ugly mole on the political forum's face.

I am sorry for ever opening this thread, and god forbid I ever make such a mistake again.

Oh, and I'ma back :|