How I see AA vs Aircraft...

[Figment]

Note: Flak = relatively low projectile speed, quantative gun, requires large numbers of hits out of big clip => Must lead target well and predict evasion moves.

Burster MAX advantage: Free, rooftops
Dual Burster MAX advantage: Rooftops
Lightning advantage: Larger clip, mobility, endurance

No Fly Zone (300m):
Burster MAX:
Perfect TTK on Aircav: 5s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 75% < X < 100%
Expected TTK: 5s - 6.6s (deterent)

Perfect TTK on Liberator: 12s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 85% < X < 100%
Expected TTK: 12s - 14.1s (PLUS TWO RELOADS) (deterent)

Dual Burster MAX:
Perfect TTK on Aircav: 2.5s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 75% < X < 100%
Expected TTK: 2.5s - 3.3s

Perfect TTK on Liberator: 6s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 85% < X < 100%
Expected TTK: 6s - 7.1s (PLUS RELOAD!)

Lightning Skyguard Turret:
Perfect TTK on Aircav: 2.5s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 75% < X < 100%
Expected TTK: 2.5 - 3.3s

Perfect TTK on Liberator: 6s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 85% < X < 100%
Expected TTK: 6s - 7.1s (NO RELOAD!)

Dangerzone (600m):
Burster MAX
Perfect TTK on Aircav: 5s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 45% < X < 75%
Expected TTK: 6.6 - 11.1s

Perfect TTK on Liberator: 6s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 60% < X < 85%
Expected TTK: 14.1s - 20s (PLUS TWO RELOADS!) (deterent)

Dual Burster MAX
Perfect TTK on Aircav: 2.5s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 45% < X < 75%
Expected TTK: 3.3s - 5.6s

Perfect TTK on Liberator: 6s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 60% < X < 85%
Expected TTK: 7.1s - 10s (PLUS RELOAD!)

Lightning
Perfect TTK on Aircav: 2.5s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 45% < X < 75%
Expected TTK: 3.3s - 5.6s

Perfect TTK on Liberator: 6s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 60% < X < 85%
Expected TTK: 7.1s - 10s (NO RELOAD!)

Risk Zone (750m):
Burster MAX
Perfect TTK on Aircav: 5s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 25% < X < 45%
Expected TTK: 11.1s - 20s

Perfect TTK on Liberator: 6s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 45% < X < 60%
Expected TTK: 20s - 26.7s (PLUS TWO/THREE RELOADS!) (deterent)

Dual Burster MAX
Perfect TTK on Aircav: 2.5s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 25% < X < 45%
Expected TTK: 5.6s - 10s

Perfect TTK on Liberator: 6s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 45% < X < 60%
Expected TTK: 10s - 13.3s (PLUS RELOAD!)

Lightning
Perfect TTK on Aircav: 2.5s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 25% < X < 45%
Expected TTK: 5.6s - 10s

Perfect TTK on Liberator: 6s @ 100% accuracy
Expected accuracy: 45% < X < 60%
Expected TTK: 10s - 13.3s (POSSIBLE RELOAD!)




As you can see, I expect aircraft to try and dodge AA constantly. By reducing their accuracy with AoE weapons, they'd be forced to get into dangerous AA ranges, where few AA units are needed to create local umbrellas in order to allow the majority of a squad to focus on ground threats. Ground units (especially close range units) would be required to clear AA. As aircraft would and should have a hard time doing that with low accuracy.


Above a certain flight level, aircraft are free to do as they please and dogfight as well as escape G2A, but are highly ineffective against smaller ground targets at longer ranges. This due to increased spread and reduced AoE radii, therefore severely reduced accuracy.



By reducing the rate of fire of the Liberator's heavy guns, it is more suited to take on larger units, bombard outposts without slaughtering and infantry and AA units get more time to find shelter or grab AA. This should encourage Liberators to be more about support and suppression fire, rather than camping and killwhoring fire. Larger groups of Liberators in this situation would not by default cause camp issues either. The low accuracy and lower rate of fire would however allow for regular size blast radii to remain. It would be possible to distinguish between AP and HE shells, or go back to very limited amounts of cluster bombs.


The A2A ESF would get their own niche role of dedicated high altitude anti-air hunters as a complementation to ground based AA and far from home AA. Lightnings would in particularly be suited for field AA and AA MAXes for outpost AA.


The ESF with rocketpods should try to make multiple swift, steep angled passes (think Stuka) with frantic maneuvres to throw off AA, not giving them time to line up for or hoverspam small targets with multiple accurate clips, instead focusing on larger targets. Stuka sound effects would be appreciated. :P Idealy, divebombers would be forced to work in packs for effective attacks on single units. This because of all the agility, speed and therefore mobility advantages they have over ground units. ESF air should, from my perspective, only become effective in groups, they too should use safety in numbers, they too should fear death, they too should be considering teamwork (squadron flying) over lonewolfing, even if lonewolfing would still be possible.



For rocketpod ESF to hit infantry with the increased spread, reduced clipsize and small explosion radius, they need to spam at least two clips to get a kill. This should provide infantry with time to find cover and should make the AI guns on the fighter aircraft the more suitable weapon to hunt infantry. Pure rocketpod TTKs on infantry would hence be around 6-8 seconds at close range, and higher at longer range. Machine gun TTK of fighters otoh would remain between 1 and 3 seconds on infantry.


AA otoh, has a bit more spread to reduce accuracy at range and suffers more from gravity, but has larger proximity AoE radii to compensate. Obviously, the AA TTKs are long enough to provide the creative dogfighter to find a ridge.




That's how I perceive AA - Air balance.

[Dragonskin]

Or... we can wait till the patch to see what changes and stop looking at the game from a lone wolf player perspective trying to take on lone wolf air.

[Miffy]

The Lib shouldn't be able to sit out of range of AA and still be able to shoot everyone. I also hate how the Lib's projectiles don't explode when they hit a target, it ends up looking like a rifle is shooting your vehicle and doing crazy damage.

It's also too hard to hit moving aircraft, all they have to do is move and most of your shots wont even hit. You'll be shooting in the right area but for some reason none are hitting, even stationary targets with non flak turrets can sit there all day, like 3/4 shots will miss.

The bullets seem to go into a random location every time, they shouldn't be doing this, they should always go into the center of the crosshair for individual shots and get less accurate as you spray. This is the same problem as CS:GO had before they changed the spread of bullets back to the CS 1.6 model.

Right now Flak hits well but it does no damage, there was 3 dual burster MAX units opening up on a Lib and the Lib was able to just fly away fine........

Also Lock on AA missles for the ground are useless, in other aircraft they're fine because you can chase the aircraft, however you cannot chase them on the ground. So as soon as you fire, they just flare and get out of range and ignore you.


The biggest problem with AA though is just how useless standard bullet type AA turrets are, you know like the turrets on vehicles such as MBTs..... I've explained why above.



I currently just hover outside outposts and kill everyone in my Mosq unless there is a Flak MAX but even then I can kill a MAX in seconds with the Infra Red sight and be fine.


They have a standard AV gun, they need a standard AA gun, right now you have to spend ages trying to unlock one, so most people don't have AA.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Miffy

The Lib shouldn't be able to sit out of range of AA and still be able to shoot everyone.

As long as it's unlikely to hit and takes a while I wouldn't mind as much (hell, would be nice to see the shells coming down - see PS1 bombdrops).

I also hate how the Lib's projectiles don't explode when they hit a target, it ends up looking like a rifle is shooting your vehicle and doing crazy damage.

Ugh yeah annoying bug.

It's also too hard to hit moving aircraft, all they have to do is move and most of your shots wont even hit. You'll be shooting in the right area but for some reason none are hitting, even stationary targets with non flak turrets can sit there all day, like 3/4 shots will miss.

They seem to be very crosseyed right now. :/ And proximity detection seems to suck as well (seems to me you actually have to hit dead on at times, don't see Flak explosions as during Beta, probably because it obscured the aircav).

Right now Flak hits well but it does no damage, there was 3 dual burster MAX units opening up on a Lib and the Lib was able to just fly away fine........

Aye, needs to be better. Hence the 6 sec perfect TTK for a single Dual Burster MAX. Should suffice.



Agree with the rest too.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

Or... we can wait till the patch to see what changes and stop looking at the game from a lone wolf player perspective trying to take on lone wolf air.

It's my thoughts on how it should be, I always seemed to be accused a lot of wanting to ruin air fights, just because I expect effective AA, while that's not true at all.

What they do in the patch is not my concern for this post. I do hope they look at it for inspiration...

[SGOniell]

I agree with this. I also think we should have a new G2A weapon. Mount it on the lightning. I'd like to see G2A missiles on that thing. Less ammo, homing, higher speed to target and more damage. Make it so they can't avoid it without fancy flying or flares, not simply outrunning it like the SR-71 blackbird use to do. I mean really, what does the Mosquito top out at? 300-something kph? we have missiles that go faster than that now, you'd think they could have that in PS2.

[Miffy]

Originally Posted by Figment

As long as it's unlikely to hit and takes a while I wouldn't mind as much (hell, would be nice to see the shells coming down - see PS1 bombdrops).



Ugh yeah annoying bug.



They seem to be very crosseyed right now. :/ And proximity detection seems to suck as well (seems to me you actually have to hit dead on at times, don't see Flak explosions as during Beta, probably because it obscured the aircav).



Aye, needs to be better. Hence the 6 sec perfect TTK for a single Dual Burster MAX. Should suffice.



Agree with the rest too.

Not only that but the MAX units have barely ammo space and the clip size is so small, you're always reloading or going back to the terminal.

I think more people would be willing to drop ammo boxes if they worked like BF3, right now they have no physics to them, the drop animation is wonky and they feel more like a texture for the ground with an icon above it to tell you where it is because they're so small. They're just unsatisfying to drop.... feels so clumsy and why are they so small?

[Figment]

I never liked the concept of ammo packs at all. :/

We tried to kill a single two-crew lib with three AA MAXes and several G2A rockets, G2A failed time and again due to flare or flying in our direction, then getting one or two shot. Then the AA MAXes getting shot... Could barely get it to 40%, would fly off, land behind a ridge very nearby but too steep for us to climb and too far to circle and three seconds later pops out of cover again fully repaired... Rinse and repeat. Lack of aircraft nearby while in between VS and TR pops... Not very balanced atm.

It's frustrating the guy got 20+ cheap kills while we only killed him once, even though we were all hammering him at the same time... :/ He finally got killed by an enemy Scythe passing by as he was repairing.

Rocketpods, ofc.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Miffy

Not only that but the MAX units have barely ammo space and the clip size is so small, you're always reloading or going back to the terminal.

I think more people would be willing to drop ammo boxes if they worked like BF3, right now they have no physics to them, the drop animation is wonky and they feel more like a texture for the ground with an icon above it to tell you where it is because they're so small. They're just unsatisfying to drop.... feels so clumsy and why are they so small?

I make it my number 1 duty as an engie to drop ammo for any MAX I can and then tell them so with the Q menu.

Till the next SC sale Im stuck with a single burster and know the pain of being forced to run to a terminal. It gets very hard to shoo off ESFs if you have to take your eyes off of them and run to the now under missile fire sundy.

[Gonefshn]

there is no way a dual burster can kill an ESF in 2.5 seconds I dont care if its parked and your 2 feet away.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Gonefshn

there is no way a dual burster can kill an ESF in 2.5 seconds I dont care if its parked and your 2 feet away.

Why not? You can kill infantry in under a second with a nose gun, then do that to a whole squad if they happen to not have 5 AA units among them since they were on route to a CC and lock on takes eons (plus you have flares and can break lock with terrain, avoiding getting hit completely) and you can dodge and use ridges for cover, which your targets cannot.

You don't want to get hit, try using some of that legendary piloting skill and do trenchruns, group up with others and fly in wings like tanks move in groups, apply hit and run and actually face the consequences of lingering or taking on targets you shouldn't have time for.

Aircav should not dare face AA directly. AA is very situational and stuck to local terrain without the ability to quickly relocate, so you can avoid it completely, provided air really is as good in flying as pilots claim tend to claim they are. The rest of us aren't so lucky with our airborne counters.

[maradine]

I don't always agree with Figment (see MBT argument thread #562,458,013), but this is more or less the world from my eyes.

[Timealude]

I do like this idea, as long as they fix the render distance problem. Currently if there's enough forces you would have to bring a lib or gunship into the danger zone just for some targets to even render.

[Archey]

Interesting concept.

Second link is missing the G in JPG

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Archey

Second link is missing the G in JPG

Thanks, fixed.