Ghost capping zergs - air domination everywhere else - wordt 2x event ever. - Page 7

Rivenshield · 2012-12-25, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Sledge

2. There should be shared experience within squads to encourage selfless behavior and team play. A medic always healing people should be rewarded when his squadmates kill enemies too. Perhaps medals for rezzing people or repairing maxes.

That's another minor mechanism from the old game that I sorely miss. It really encouraged you to pitch in and do your part.

maradine · 2012-12-25, 03:44 PM

How about Winner-Takes-All facility fight XP?

Remove existing cap bonus and defense bonus percentages.
First kill in a location's hex set starts an invisible timer and counter.
If the timer expires without another kill taking place (call it 30 seconds, haven't thought too hard about it), the timer and counter reset.
If another kill occurs, increment the counter and reset the timer.
Fight continues until facility capture or successful defense, counter incrementing with kills and timer continually resetting.
At capture or defense, distribute bonus XP to winning faction proportional to magnitude of the counter.
Reset counter and timer.

What this would do is provide no value for ghost caps, marginal value for lightly defended or lightly attacked facilities, and a steadily growing motherlode for the big fights as they drag on and more people call in reinforcements - but only to the faction that seals the deal.

On the other hand, this still serves to clump the continent's fighters up into a big cluster. Probably worse than that; I can see people jumping continent just to get in on the big fight somewhere else that's about to end.

You know what, leaving this here for posterity, but forget I suggested it. Not the best idea.

p0intman · 2012-12-25, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

What p0intman doesn`t say about os`s from PS is that they were on a timer, 3 hour i think. You couldnt just keep pulling tactical blasts everytime you met the enemy, altho in the end nearly everyone had them so they were widely used.

near the end, the timer really didn't matter anyway because i could just tell a buddy where a target was over comms and it'd be dead a minute later.

Ghoest9 · 2012-12-25, 09:03 PM

There should be an option for a squad leader to set half of all experience to be shared.
Theres no need for it in a pick up squad just attacking stuff. But would greatly improve the fairness of organized activities where some important jobs offer small rewards.

ringring · 2012-12-26, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Biohazard

Dynamic base defense XP, the longer and harder the fight the more you get. This would be a powerful incentive to fight and seek the enemy.

This is it (added to short cap times).

If you want to get xp, go on a bus tour and collect 500xp at each stop off.

Sturmhardt · 2012-12-26, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

There should be an option for a squad leader to set half of all experience to be shared.
Theres no need for it in a pick up squad just attacking stuff. But would greatly improve the fairness of organized activities where some important jobs offer small rewards.

That sounds awesome, why is this not in yet SOE?

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RykerStruvian · 2012-12-26, 09:10 AM

I ran with a dual-outfit platoon of 12-18 people over the past four days of my vacation and we tried to do everything we could to go where our zerg wasnt. We found some really interesting fights but each fight, if our side lacked the population (which it didnt mostly) ended up with us hiding in buildings and spawn from a single liberator and/or ESF.

Regardless of what anyone says, it isnt an issue of skill, l2p, not enough AA, etc. The current form of this game does not allow small non-zerg squads to be combat effective against all forms of vehicles even if they are in small numbers. This is what happened:

We take an outpost, hold it, secure it, and it flips. Enemy comes in with ESF, we pull AA MAXs and HA w/ Hawks/Annihilators. Scythes take damage, fly off, repair, come back. This repeats.

Enemy brings in a liberator. The liberator -demolishes- any infantry we have and MAXs can't do nearly enough damage to it because it has a zephyr and maxed out composite armor. By this time a 3-man galaxy w/ maxed out armor and bulldogs comes. Now we're being camped by a liberator and galaxy. At this time we just redeploy at warpgate.

So we tried not to fight with the zerg and had more than enough AA, but because we didn't have any ESF support we were rendered practically combat ineffective. We didn't encounter any initial resistance, but the enemy was able to farm us. And this is something that repeats over, and over, and over again if you try not to follow the zerg.

So you have two options: Get your ass kicked by OP air or ghost cap with the zerg. Hate to say it, but ghost capping with the zerg brings in massive certs and is a lot less frustrating. :\

Emperor Newt · 2012-12-26, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Sturmhardt

That sounds awesome, why is this not in yet SOE?

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I have no idea... this was suggested during beta several times and I cannot think of a single time the devs actually responded to the idea. But I think it should be restricted to outfits or the option restricted to high BR players.

For publis squads it has some problems of being likely to be abused, but who want's to share his xp with leechers anyway? As long as there is something telling you that xp is shared I doubt people would stay in squads with leechers or not kick those out.

MyOdessa · 2012-12-26, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by RykerStruvian

I ran with a dual-outfit platoon of 12-18 people over the past four days of my vacation and we tried to do everything we could to go where our zerg wasnt. We found some really interesting fights but each fight, if our side lacked the population (which it didnt mostly) ended up with us hiding in buildings and spawn from a single liberator and/or ESF.

Regardless of what anyone says, it isnt an issue of skill, l2p, not enough AA, etc. The current form of this game does not allow small non-zerg squads to be combat effective against all forms of vehicles even if they are in small numbers. This is what happened:

We take an outpost, hold it, secure it, and it flips. Enemy comes in with ESF, we pull AA MAXs and HA w/ Hawks/Annihilators. Scythes take damage, fly off, repair, come back. This repeats.

Enemy brings in a liberator. The liberator -demolishes- any infantry we have and MAXs can't do nearly enough damage to it because it has a zephyr and maxed out composite armor. By this time a 3-man galaxy w/ maxed out armor and bulldogs comes. Now we're being camped by a liberator and galaxy. At this time we just redeploy at warpgate.

So we tried not to fight with the zerg and had more than enough AA, but because we didn't have any ESF support we were rendered practically combat ineffective. We didn't encounter any initial resistance, but the enemy was able to farm us. And this is something that repeats over, and over, and over again if you try not to follow the zerg.

So you have two options: Get your ass kicked by OP air or ghost cap with the zerg. Hate to say it, but ghost capping with the zerg brings in massive certs and is a lot less frustrating. :\

I have exactly the same experience, a squad or two take small outpost or try to out flank enemy, have couple good ground fights, EFS/Libs come in. Game Over.

Until there is MAJOR nerf to air power, this game will continue looking like migration scene from Ice Age. Zerg crowd attracts its own air and enemy does not put up much resistance. If you lucky you get one or two kills and a few certs when base is capped. BORING.

RykerStruvian · 2012-12-26, 01:07 PM

I don't think air power necessarily needs to be nerfed but I think ground assets versus air need to be buffed. For one thing, the HAWK/Annihilator DO NOT WORK 3 out of 4 times. ESF either A) pop flares B) bank a little while flying C) Do absolutely nothing. The guided missiles from both the HAWK/Annihilator have terribad tracking and dont even do damage when they make contact. I bought both the HAWK/Annihilator and have fired at ESF from multiple angles with them diving at me, flying away, flying vertically, etc. The guided missiles are easily thrown off course, die prematurely, or do absolutely no damage at all (they make contact, I see them explode, the hit indicator flashes, yet no damage was actually dealt). There is that one missile which manages to actually make contact and do damage, but the damage is so little that it doesn't make a difference.

However, I am not saying buff the damage. I understand one G2A shouldn't take out an ESF but something seriously needs to be done. None of the rocket launchers have anything available to be certed in to to improve them as well.

The skyguard still seems to suck as well. It does very little damage to ESF and seems to only be good at being scary and blinding bombers. AP rounds seem to be better versus air because they actually hurt a lot and typically three shot libs and one shot ESF from long range. I've killed more air units with the AP turret than the skyguard this way :\

Sorry went on a tangent. ;[ FYI, I am also a pilot. When heavy assaults lock on to me and fire off their rockets, I just lol knowing they will do nothing and keep farming the bajeezus out of them with rocket pods.

gunshooter · 2012-12-26, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by TehCandyMan

I think this all boils down to one thing and one thing only and that is Vehicles are a bit overpowerd in this version of Planetside.

I should not take 10 guys shooting at a tank or 10 guys shooting at a Plane to take them down. And please don't talk to me about certing C-4 to dispatch with tanks.. Because any retarded with a pair of eyes will see you coming from a mile away, now you add the ZERG factor in there and goodluck with getting near them.

These Devs need to give AV and AA more of a bite so we will be able to deal with these Zergs of vehicles. Right now it's almost impossible to deal with them because your having to fight them and soldiers at the same time, and trying to kill tanks and planes is a full time job as it is.

Vehicles are easy to kill, there's just too many of them. Anyway, I think the main issue is just poor base design. Outposts are all universally poorly designed, period, aside from the Crown/Skydock which are cool and unique.

RykerStruvian · 2012-12-26, 04:00 PM

The skydock is one of the easiest places to farm if not the most. Infantry and MAXs can camp/rig the landing pad while a smart lib pilot can hide under the length of the ridge of the plateau only to rise, bomb the infantry, and then once again go below the base to repair and cause infantry in the base to lose LoS.

StumpyTheOzzie · 2012-12-26, 04:51 PM

SWEET! I'm gonna do that later today.

james · 2012-12-26, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

There is no reason to defend, do to most of the points come from capping bases, and kills. Plus an average player, can get just as many points zerging from undefended base to undefended base as they can grinding. I think i can do around 15k an hr capping. I do around 10k an hr when grinding it out in fights with my outfit. Thats with premium tier 6 and 50 percent boost.

The only time we get a decent fight is when the zerg hits us, and when the zerg hits us, most times they just leave

igster · 2012-12-26, 08:36 PM

Lots of very good constructive points here. One point that I would like to counter though is on the resource system. People saying that it needs to be made so that it is useful.. also a way to counter vehicleside.

1) Resource System
For me, the resource system is a 'dogma' introduced by the planetside 2 team themselves. PS2 must have a resource system. End of argument. Now as it was pretty poorly thought out in beta and then modified into another pretty badly thought out and implemented system in the live game... my personal point is that this is one of those 'yellow post it notes' written in really big writing at a design meeting that has never actually had any deep thought or effort put into it.

Don't introduce a headline game element if it hasnt properly been thought about and weaved into the gameplay at a micro and macro level. What is it there for? If it brings nothing to the table other than bringing a tactical element into the game then it shouldnt be implemented. What happens to resources when a side is dominating and what happens when a side is being massively outgunned. Boundary conditions. What is my motivation to fight on.

I don't think having 2 systems to deny people playing the class or vehicle that they want to play is a good idea. Have a timer system... fine... this does work... people don't equate time to money... we know it works. Alternatively have a resource system... not so good in my opinion since people equate resources to money... fine but don't have both which are both working against me playing the class or role that I am specced to play and want to fulfil. Or am asked to fulfil.

The problem I have with a resource cost on spawning vehicles or classes is that as an outfit we might be zerging a base one minute and the call comes over outfit chat or on the leader channels to defend Base X on continent Y.

Everyone stop what you are doing or you lose your left nut.. this is your squad leader calling. In a dynamic exciting game you want to be doing this. Change the pace responding to tactical events under the command of your leaders. If you have spent everything you had on a vehicle... does that match with being able to react with what your SL is demanding.
I've just pulled a burster max and have no max certs left... my SL wants 3 maxes to join this assault and I'm the max specialist.

We get this now in the game. I've just pulled a scythe. I've had to wait 10 minutes to pull it because of the timer. I love flying. As I've selected the scythe from the menu my squad leader calls for everyone to jump into a galaxy to assault a base. What do I do. I want to smash my head against the table.
PS1 had a much smaller timer and didnt seem to have a problem with max spam or reaver spam or tank spam. Why is it such a problem now that we also need a resource system to counter it?

This is a fundamental problem that means that the resource and timer systems are designed around the solo player and not against a team player. I play in a team and want to be a team player. Don't put systems in my way that mean that I can't. It seems to be designed to force someone to rotate what they play over time.

Don't get resources and timers and ability to pull a vehicle or class you want to play mixed up. The meta game should not be solely based on stopping people play what they want to. Resources in PS1 were also about giving you a super radar.. giving you auto repair facilites from bases, alien tecnology, piggin flails!! NTU Resources as a way to siege a base.

This was the reward system. It enhanced your game as well as penalised your game. When you were being dominated.. u got a bonus to make the hurt go away. When you spawn camped you got little XP. When you killed someone who'd been alive for a long time, you got a cracking chunk of XP.

Penalties/Rewards more like PS1. This isn't starcraft. The resource system that we have is just vespene and minerals from starcraft without any thought out reason for it. It doesn't make any sense.

2 - Tactical Response

This resource system goes against one of the key gameplay elements that I have seen completely get lost in PS2. Something I really miss. Responding to the enemy operations.
We spent 9 years responding to hacks and special operations in PS1 and loved it. (BTW if someone doesnt know what this is about then they never properly played PS1 and you should ask one of the guys who did experience this to explain how much epic fun is to be had in resecuring bases and denying enemy attacks)

From my point of view this element of the game just didnt get considered in the PS2 design meetings. I may be wrong but I suspect that the designers didnt fully experience the game at this level. The focus was on epic large scale battles. Which has resulted in the current Zerg herding focus.

The poor map system doesnt help this element of gameplay that has been lost since it is no longer possible to determine what the enemy is up to. You lose power on your bases and you know nothing about it. Someone is prepping a base for a cap and you have no way of knowing since you are fighting in a different hex.

We had squads who you knew specialised in prepping a base for an attack to open up a new continent in a way that meant that you wouldn't detect what they were doing. Then the hack would go on and the tactical response players would hopefully spot what was happening and try to organise a response. Respond well and u'd hopefully stop them in their tracks. Don't respond and you'd be at a gameplay disadvantage - forces were pulled from where you wanted them to be. A whole meta game right there.

The relief and excitement you'd get when you'd resecure a base at the very last second was great. Something for the smaller outfits to do. It wasn't about numbers necessarily. It was about teamplay.
On offence a small team holds off a much larger response from the present owners of a base.
Or on defence a small team of well co-ordinated players resecure a base that is being captured by a bigger team.

This was the real chess game and strategy of PS1 and why the meta game here was so much richer. Add on top of this surgical strikes and defences of key resource generators (e.g. tech plants for air + tanks, interlinks for minimap radar) And then the lattice overlays this and you can see how us PS1 players are generally disappointed with the PS2 meta game.
PS2 meta game is tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses for us Anglophiles)
PS1 meta game is Chess

It did have it's downside in that it was hard to explain at times. It was rich. It could be abused also. It did mean that you could play it to avoid the eternal 3 way battle that are impossible to avoid that we have in PS2. It also had major issues where you were engineered into ghost capping continents.

But given a choice between the ghost capping zerg that we have now and the PS1 system I'd choose the PS1 meta game anytime.

Summary Fur Coat and No Underpants
PS2 is the game of the year. The graphics, the mechanics, the weapons, the vehicles and to some extent the maps and bases are stunning. Without the deep rich long game that we can still be playing in 10 years time it will lose population to the next big game.

PS1 graphics and mechanics were bad (not at the time) but people played for a long time despite this. It wasn't because of the meta game that it lost population. We still had great times for 10 years.

Put a meta game of equivalent depth into PS2 and it'll be the game of the decade and I'll buy all of the cuban hats, 6 inch heels, tiger print leotards and studded codpieces that you put into the PS2 Shop for the next ten years.

With only a Shallow meta game as it is now hardcore players will be bored and move on. The shop is gonna have full shelves and empty tills within the year. Along with many others I'll probably be looking for my fashion accessories elsewhere.