i dont really care if air is somehow balanced by dual bursts - its not fun. - Page 2

SixShooter · 2012-12-29, 09:32 PM

Dual Bursters are pretty decent and a group of them is pretty awesome, killing air left and right. What they really need to do is fix the Skygaurd. The Skygaurd was supposed to be the best AA in the game according to some of the old interviews with the devs. Now it's completely useless even in groups and not even comparable to dual bursters. Give the Skygaurd back its teeth.

Chewy · 2012-12-29, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by SixShooter

Dual Bursters are pretty decent and a group of them is pretty awesome, killing air left and right. What they really need to do is fix the Skygaurd. The Skygaurd was supposed to be the best AA in the game according to some of the old interviews with the devs. Now it's completely useless even in groups and not even comparable to dual bursters. Give the Skygaurd back its teeth.

I kinda like the skyguard. The main problems with it are slow bullet travel and limited ammo supply. You have to lead so much with a skyguard that it has no room for small adjustments. Every move an aircraft makes needs a large change to aim to keep hitting. Add that to the 50 round mags running out within moments and you're out of ammo before doing a lot of damage if there's not an ammo tower/sundy to camp.

A well place skyguard can rip apart anything in the air it wants. But that takes a LOT of skill in leading the shots and dodging return fire. Without the infantries small render distance to hide in that MAXes have a skyguard has to be very mindful of what's around him for cover and escape paths.

gunshooter · 2012-12-29, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Chewy

I kinda like the skyguard. The main problems with it are slow bullet travel and limited ammo supply. You have to lead so much with a skyguard that it has no room for small adjustments. Every move an aircraft makes needs a large change to aim to keep hitting. Add that to the 50 round mags running out within moments and you're out of ammo before doing a lot of damage if there's not an ammo tower/sundy to camp.

A well place skyguard can rip apart anything in the air it wants. But that takes a LOT of skill in leading the shots and dodging return fire. Without the infantries small render distance to hide in that MAXes have a skyguard has to be very mindful of what's around him for cover and escape paths.

It's also a tank. This means that aircraft can actually see it. It's not going to last long once they realize it's a threat.

Helwyr · 2012-12-29, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by MgFalcon

We need more trees!

Yup trees populated with Starfires.

also

@ the poster rambling on about this game being about teamwork as some justification for ESFs that require none.

Ghoest9 · 2012-12-29, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Helwyr

also

@ the poster rambling on about this game being about teamwork as some justification for ESFs that require none.

This.

Why are infantry expected to be viable against air only when they have a large highly organized squad with dedicated roles.
But its just fine that air working solo or in pairs can range all over the battle field being highly effective.

It seems to me the devs only want air to have fun playing.

Assist · 2012-12-30, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

I think air is over powered - but its kind of beside the point - if air is ruining the fun for most of the players(and its definitely what my friends who mostly stopped playing complained about) then air is ruining the game.

I agree. Air is just not balanced like ground vehicles and infantry. They made direct counters to Air, where as Air is a counter to everything.
I also agree about Bio Labs being the only decent infantry fights anymore. The problem is Bio Labs are only fun as VS/TR IMO. NC Max's need a nerf so bad when compared to TR/VS Max. They need to make a decision, whether they want people to fight over bases for hours like how tech plants were and bio labs were, or if they want fights to be fluid like how Amp Stations and Tech Plants are now. I personally vote for the later, as I think it takes more strategy to defend then and currently the most rewards in the game come from defense and not offense. If they go for how the old tech plants were, then this bs of people capturing empty bases will just continue until PS2 dies.

**Grummz** · 2012-12-30, 01:05 AM

I think the OP is not saying air is overpowered. He is saying that the dynamic of air is not fun. That's...a different problem. It doesn't matter if a game is realistic, or even balanced. If there is an aspect of it that is consistently not fun, then the dialogue should be about what would make it fun...since that is the job of the game, to entertain you.

The tricky part is when you have PvP, you need to make sure its fun for both sides. Even if you get killed by air, you should think "Oh man, that battle was fun, if I had just done this and this, I would have survived or even shot him down"

After all the discussion on what air is and isn't, I found the OP's take refreshing. What would be the best entertainment option for air and infantry. It might lead to some new ideas if we though about it this way.

Chewy · 2012-12-30, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by gunshooter

It's also a tank. This means that aircraft can actually see it. It's not going to last long once they realize it's a threat.

I think I covered the fact that skyguards can actually be seen by air and have to be mindful of it within the 2 part of that post. The last part about how MAXes have a short render distance while vehicles have to use cover and always have an escape path.

In any case just think about how OP air can be once infantry gets a larger render distance. That's the only thing keeping infantry alive in A2G fights from my point of view. Without being able to pepper air before the swarm of rockets come would ruin whats left of ground play and it's one thing I hope doesn't get fixed yet.

Helwyr · 2012-12-30, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by Chewy

In any case just think about how OP air can be once infantry gets a larger render distance. That's the only thing keeping infantry alive in A2G fights from my point of view.[...]

Could be Infantry will just get more render distance to other Infantry, or rather a more consistent render distance, as that's the real problem with rendering in PS2 not the maximum distance but the lack of consistency (which is there as a band-aid mechanic for PC performance). Like you say if vehicles, especially Aircraft render Infantry further than they already do then it's pretty much game over, as that's the one thing that keeps game balance from going right over the edge.

Chewy · 2012-12-30, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by Helwyr

Could be Infantry will just get more render distance to other Infantry, or rather a more consistent render distance, as that's the real problem with rendering in PS2 not the maximum distance but the lack of consistency (which is there as a band-aid mechanic for PC performance). Like you say if vehicles, especially Aircraft render Infantry further than they already do then it's pretty much game over, as that's the one thing that keeps game balance from going right over the edge.

I keep forgetting about the game cutting render distance depending of the number of entities and affects happening. To accustomed to playing Day Z where you can see everything that's within view distance (up to 1KM depending of weather and time of day).

To think of it, I still haven't bothered to play with the settings yet. Been using the default med settings the game opened with. May be time to start messing with them for better FPS. Sitting on an average of the 40s is great, but turns to shit when I try and record video.

psijaka · 2012-12-30, 09:35 AM

Sympathise with the OP.

I run dual Bursters out of a sense of duty sometimes, but there's not much pleasure (or XP) to be had fulfilling this role.

And Skyguard - forget it.

Hmr85 · 2012-12-30, 10:38 AM

While dual Bursters are not the most fun thing to do in the game. They are unfortunately a necessary evil since it is the only AA we have atm that is some what effective. I feel that if they buffed the Skyguard to where it needed to be and actually made the G2A rocket launcher hit half the time we would see a significant improvement.

List of changes I would like to see.

1.) I would start by getting rid of that 3 to 4 seconds of invincibility that air has when it pops a flare. I believe that it should cancel all locks that it has currently but that is it. " to compensate for it they could reduce the CD on flares some."

2.) Increase the lock on distance of the G2A launcher. Faster missile speed and with tracking similar to the A2A missile that ESF's have.

3.) Faster projectile speed on Skyguards with a bigger ammo capacity.

I feel that if these 3 things where done we would find a nice balance between air and ground.

bpostal · 2012-12-30, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Grummz

I think the OP is not saying air is overpowered. He is saying that the dynamic of air is not fun. That's...a different problem. It doesn't matter if a game is realistic, or even balanced. If there is an aspect of it that is consistently not fun, then the dialogue should be about what would make it fun...since that is the job of the game, to entertain you.
The tricky part is when you have PvP, you need to make sure its fun for both sides. Even if you get killed by air, you should think "Oh man, that battle was fun, if I had just done this and this, I would have survived or even shot him down"
After all the discussion on what air is and isn't, I found the OP's take refreshing. What would be the best entertainment option for air and infantry. It might lead to some new ideas if we though about it this way.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The current, stated design is geared heavily towards flyboys at the detriment to the other two primary portions of Combined Operations (Ground Combat Element and Force Service Support Element to include infantry and armor both.)

I'm at a loss as to the perfect solution but my belief is that by eliminating the effect of air and armor fire inside of a base, that is, to design bases more along the lines of classic Planetside the quality of infantry fights would be much higher. The inability to strictly enforce a 'no fly zone' via ground AA without the coordinated fire of over a dozen people is really a shame because that kind of tight knit teamwork is not required on the part of ESFs or Liberators. This disparity is the cause of frustration.

That said, if the Jan patch doesn't fix at least some of these solutions and shift the design process back towards created a deep, immersive game then I, speaking only for myself, would have to write this game off for much longer than I had originally intended, perhaps wait for years in order to see this game mature into a 'playable' state.
I might even try Firefall. It's not Planetside, but IMO, neither is PS2.

SgtMAD · 2012-12-30, 01:43 PM

the problem is the burster,the flak ammo is a joke and the cof is so messed up that sometimes you hit a target then the next time u miss every shot.

AA turrets are just there to bother aircraft,the idea that the gun heats up so damn fast plus the cof and the flak prox that seems to be set on "contact" instead of an area effect

the ppl using the burster are also a problem, they start engaging targets at too far a distance giving the air too many chances to escape.

we used to set up at Indar Comms/Indar with 25 guys and set up AA farms with infantry support and hold it for hours,we learned to acquire the target and get 5 maxes aimed in and then open fire when they got close, the friggin ESF would just instagib LOL,the only thing that didn't just disappear was a gal but it would die too

the amount of hacker tells was insane

bpostal · 2012-12-30, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by HtSgtMAD

the problem is the burster,the flak ammo is a joke and the cof is so messed up that sometimes you hit a target then the next time u miss every shot.

AA turrets are just there to bother aircraft,the idea that the gun heats up so damn fast plus the cof and the flak prox that seems to be set on "contact" instead of an area effect

the ppl using the burster are also a problem, they start engaging targets at too far a distance giving the air too many chances to escape.

we used to set up at Indar Comms/Indar with 25 guys and set up AA farms with infantry support and hold it for hours,we learned to acquire the target and get 5 maxes aimed in and then open fire when they got close, the friggin ESF would just instagib LOL,the only thing that didn't just disappear was a gal but it would die too

the amount of hacker tells was insane

The only problem with that is that your Bursters need to be way out in front of everything else (or at least everything important, like AMS) because the effective engagement range of say, a Dalton is much further than the Burster. Rendering issues aside.