Rocket Pods being FOO

[phungus]

I've thought about rocket pods alot, and while I've always believed the game would simply be better without them, it's irrelevant as they are in the game.

The problem with rocket pods isn't that they are too powerful, it's simply that they are always the best choice when you loadout an ESF. A2Am and AB pods simply aren't as good. This means everyone loads rocket pods, all of the time.

I'm not saying that rocket pods need a nerf, or A2Am need a buff. That's not my premise, and it wouldn't fix things anyway, I am a huge proponent of the recent A2Am nerf in fact. However there seriously needs to be an alternative to rocket pods. Choice is generally good, and also it's not optimal for nearly all ESFs out there to be anti everything (and incredibly good vs armor) with the standard rotary + rocket pods loadout. I only want to shoot down planes, so I still load my A2Am or my AB pods on my reaver (works great with shotgun), but even I sometimes load out rocket pods on my mossy and I find I'm pretty much just as good at shooting down planes.

I'm not trying to complain or whine about things here. I just know that Higby and the other devs read this forum and I'm curious if there has been any thought to making rocket pods less of a first order optimal loadout. I have plenty of ideas to improve A2Am without making them lock on cheese, but ideas are cheap and I'm sure the devs who are actually getting paid can come up with good ones by themselves, as always it's implementation and time constraints that are the issue.

So any chance on a dev response here? How do others view rocket pods? Is pretty much everyone in agreement that rocket pods are simply a first order optimal loadout, and the other loadouts just can't compete with them on a practical level?

[Obstruction]

i think that's 7 bucks per player that wants to fly ESF and 21 if they want to fly 3 factions.

the cash cow goes moooooooooooo

[PredatorFour]

one word ... turbo laser .... BAM

[Sledgecrushr]

[QUOTE=PredatorFour;896857two words ... turbo laser .... BAM[/QUOTE]

Fixed it for ya

[zulu]

I agree that A2G rockets aren't too powerful.

I think people tend to have a very individualistic view of the effect of A2G Rockets. They get killed by rockets and feel powerless and think they're a scourge when they're really not. Yes, they're very effective against armor and infantry, but they're not especially efficient. Unloading a whole salvo of rockets into the rear armor of an MBT will usually do the trick, but that's a lot of missiles, and it only really hurts one target. Same goes for infantry -- unless they're very tightly bunched, more than likely you're unloading half of a salvo to kill one guy.

ESFs can't afford to loiter over a battlefield of any real size, since one or two burster Maxes can destroy them pretty quickly. So fighters have to basically "boom and zoom" unless the enemy isn't pulling AA assets, friendly ground forces have cleared out most of the threats, or friendly air superiority is so great that you can suppress AA units with a little coordination.

So, in other words, yes: A2G pods are great at destroying enemy targets, but in order to do that several conditions have to be met, and unless everything is perfect, the fighter is more than likely only going to be targeting one tank or a handful of infantry at a time (and that's only if the infantry is tightly grouped).

So as a pilot, tank driver, and infantryman, I'm not really all that concerned about A2G stuff. I think it's pretty fairly balanced (though tanks right now are subject to a pretty ridiculous number of threats and yet they keep getting nerfed against infantry -- the primary source of those threats).

So I don't think they're quite as strong in their intended role as you seem to think. And that means they might not be optimal for everything.

But, to address your actual point:

I disagree somewhat that A2G pods are really your only option as a fighter pilot. I see enough A2A rockets (and they seem to be effective enough against me and my teammates) that I think they're a good option. If I had 500 certs I'd probably buy them. Yes, as you say, the dead-fire rockets are pretty effective at blowing up VTOLs, but really only against Libs and Galaxies.

But I agree that ESF loadouts are more than a little boring. It would be nice to see some other options for primary and secondary weapons. Strong laser-guided bombs, for instance. Cluster munitions for use against infantry (though I'm sure that would immediately lead to a huge outcry).

A related problem -- a product of the proliferation of lock-on weapons (though I've been seeing fewer and fewer lock-ons lately) -- is that flares are pretty much the only option for ESFs. Scout Radar is a pretty neat idea, but giving up flares for it is asking too much. The same goes for Composite Armor.

Another good thing would be to give the starting loadout (the general purpose nosegun and the afterburner pods) a stronger role. Right now it takes the A2G or A2A pods just to put a new pilot on something of a level playing field (in other words: not just being AA fodder). It's not so much that the A2G pods are the only optimal build as it is that the first loadout you get is mostly crap. Attacking ground units is all but impossible. Attacking air units is possible, but not very effective.

So what I'd probably do is make the current high-RPM anti-air guns the default guns. This would turn starter ESFs into interceptors, which is probably what they should be. And then I'd turn the current general-purpose noseguns into something more specialized: perhaps an anti-armor cannon (as if tanks need more threats...) with a slow bullet velocity and no splash damage.

Also the anti-infantry nosegun (at least for the Mossy) needs to not be total crap in order to give new pilots a real option for variation.

This is probably kind of a ramble, but I hope it has a few interesting ideas.

[Pella]

Since when do you have to use rocket Pods?

AB/Nose Gun set ups are lethal. And its quite easy to dominated the skys.

And for the Mozzie, I often use AB/Banshee nose gun for farming grunts on the ground. Which you can sustain a better kill ratio when used right.

Then you have the Needler, Which can sit 1000s of Meters away and take out tanks no problem at all.

People tend to stick to RP/ROTARY because they are clueless and lack imagination of the potential of other set ups. Those types of Pilots are bad.

[phungus]

Originally Posted by Pella

Since when do you have to use rocket Pods?

AB/Nose Gun set ups are lethal. And its quite easy to dominated the skys.

And for the Mozzie, I often use AB/Banshee nose gun for farming grunts on the ground. Which you can sustain a better kill ratio when used right.

Then you have the Needler, Which can sit 1000s of Meters away and take out tanks no problem at all.

People tend to stick to RP/ROTARY because they are clueless and lack imagination of the potential of other set ups. Those types of Pilots are bad.

You're confused on what a first order optimal strategy is. Other strategies may be viable or even superior (especially for specific goals), but a first order optimal strategy is simply so good overall that only an insignificant amount of players will do or use anything other then the first order optimal strategy. Overall rocket pods with a rotary can do everything, and do it well, so much so that pretty much all the certed ESFs out there use this loadout.

And again I'm not complaining about the power of rocket pods, it's irrelevant. The issue is that there is no realistically viable option to rocket pods with a rotary for the vast majority of players.

[RobUK]

Originally Posted by zulu

I agree that A2G rockets aren't too powerful.

[...]

Yes, they're very effective against armor and infantry, but they're not especially efficient. Unloading a whole salvo of rockets into the rear armor of an MBT will usually do the trick, but that's a lot of missiles, and it only really hurts one target. Same goes for infantry -- unless they're very tightly bunched, more than likely you're unloading half of a salvo to kill one guy.

ESFs can't afford to loiter over a battlefield of any real size

Those are "limitations" experienced by every offensive vehicle in the entire game.

The ESF is an incredibly powerful and versatile SOLO vehicle.

There is no reason for a single seat vehicle to be any more potent or useful on the battlefield than the ESF already is.

Try getting in a tank and driving around on your own in the way that you can in an ESF and you will always be waiting out your timer.

In the context of how a Planetside game works, the solo ESF is just fine.

[Ohaunlaim]

Personally I find the afterburner boosters to be fairly useless compared to everything else. I always felt they should give you afterburners. No ABpods, no AB. That would definitely make them feel more useful and increase their use.

As everyone, for differing reasons, has called before: AP and AI specific pod weapon options would be nice, too. In this case they would also be likely to cause loadouts to be mixed up a bit more.

[zulu]

Originally Posted by RobUK

Those are "limitations" experienced by every offensive vehicle in the entire game.

The ESF is an incredibly powerful and versatile SOLO vehicle.

There is no reason for a single seat vehicle to be any more potent or useful on the battlefield than the ESF already is.

...

In the context of how a Planetside game works, the solo ESF is just fine.

"Not overpowered" is not the same thing as "underpowered." You seem to have greatly misunderstood my point. Which is odd, given that at one point I explicitly stated that air units are effectively balanced against ground right now.

But I'll reiterate for you: The point is not that ESFs are weak, but rather that the frequent complaint that rocket pods are OP and that everything else in the game needs more effective counters to air is wrong. It is also evidence against the OP's point about the A2G pods being the most optimal build all of the time.

Try getting in a tank and driving around on your own in the way that you can in an ESF and you will always be waiting out your timer.

For the record (and as I imply in my previous post) I drive a Prowler around quite a bit. Yes, the current balance makes aggressive tank play a rarity. I've had only a handful of good open-field tank battles recently: usually it's just either pushing into a fortified position and being destroyed by infantry, or it's sitting around outside a less-fortified position and blowing up infantry.

This is unfortunate, and it's one of the factors that leads to the rather ridiculous habit we have now of tanks just lining up at a few hundred meters and taking potshots at each other. How lame.

The combination of the lengthy timer system, a large number of very lethal threats, an inability to fire on the move effectively, and a variety of bugs (the Vanguard's shield render bug) seems like it has created a pretty boring situation for tanks. Some might enjoy it (and I enjoy it in the right circumstances -- if I've got a friend in the secondary gun and we're hunting enemy sunderers in their own territory, for instance, or if we're attacking a base that isn't filled with infantry and we're not at the head of some massive zerg army, so it isn't just a curbstomp either way), but for the most part I don't.

[Figment]

...Did he just say NOT powerful? Does he even play ground units?