Medics, Engineers, Light Assault - should they have limited "juice/glue/fuel"?

Figment · 2013-03-11, 04:45 PM

Engineers have unlimited glue for the repair tool.
Engineers have unlimited ammopacks (only limitation in using two at once) and therefore unlimited ammunition.
Engineers have unlimited turrets.

Medics have unlimited healing juice for the medical applicator.
Medics have unlimitedly recharging group healing ability.

Jetpacks have unlimitedly recharging fuel and therefore can get pretty much anywhere over and over and over.

Is this a good thing for the game? Shouldn't these be part of a trade-off with for instance extra ammunition? Currently extra ammunition is for instance part of a trade-off with the Heavy Assault shields, which doesn't really make much sense.

Limited ammunition or limited juice/glue would result in attrition. For instance, ammopacks and turrets could cost a certain amount of "nanites" (glue) to construct, while repairs would use the same resource within a player. This would make it easier to wage war of attrition on tanks that pop in and out of view for repairs at longer distances: they couldn't keep that up indefinitely. It'd also increase the impact of the Sunderer's repair bay and any vehicle's self-repair slots. Currently there's no real need for them.

Medics currently predominantly help larger groups and larger groups of medics aren't really attrition sensitive in an infantry fight till you take them all out. Smaller teams require less reviving, so they would have a little less of a disadvantage when they can make enemy medics run out of healing and reviving power at some point.

Wouldn't it also be better for the gameplay (more strategic decisions) if certain areas weren't reachable by using the hug a building exploit by Light Assaults, simply because the jetpack can only be used as long as fuel hasn't ran out? Wouldn't this also make the drifter jetpack more important too in order to reach certain areas? Currently I see no reason to ever cert into that. I'd also see it make the infiltrator suit and Galaxy Dropship more important, since currently the Light Assault is not in good competition for that role as the Light Assault is easy to acquire and use to get anywhere high up and avoid any obstacles an infil might encounter.

There just seems to be too much convenience catering going on there.

Redshift · 2013-03-11, 04:52 PM

with no inventory i don't think you can have a system without infinite ammo, otherwise you'd have no option to dig in anywhere, you couldn't plan to dig in and take a shed load of suplies in the maxes like PS1

Gonefshn · 2013-03-11, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Redshift

with no inventory i don't think you can have a system without infinite ammo, otherwise you'd have no option to dig in anywhere, you couldn't plan to dig in and take a shed load of suplies in the maxes like PS1

Why would you need inventory to have ammo for med tools/ammo packs etc?

It works fine already with C4, medkits, heck even with guns.

A med applicator ammo would be no different than ammo in a gun, you just need an equipment terminal to resupply. And certs could increase the ammo you can hold.

I like this idea as long as its not TOO restrictive.

Figment · 2013-03-11, 05:10 PM

An inventory system could be used for that, but as Gonefshn says, it's not entirely necessary.

You could do:

1. Have a bar with Z points. Sum X is the sum of all your ammo, Sum Y is the sum of all your spare glue/juice/fuel. Then Z = Sum X + Sum Y = a fixed total.

2. Do the above with fixed, bigger percentages of glue/juice and have ammo be allowed to fill up whatever percentage is left (kinda like inventory tetris, but simpler).

3. Inventory.

4. Separate base amount for glue/juice/fuel from ammo, so ammo and glue and all don't trade-off. (Basically C4 vs ammo)

5. Option 4 + 1 or 2 or 3. In other words, separete base amount, then trade-off for more.

6. Option 4 + trade-off in which thing you get extra (fuel extension + juice extension + glue extension or ammo extension)

Just to name some alternatives.

Lonehunter · 2013-03-11, 05:27 PM

In my opinion it just helps facilitate faster paced gameplay. You could of course throw it in with certs and make a trade off for it, but that seems like trying to fit too much into that mechanic. I think it's fine as is

mrmrmrj · 2013-03-11, 05:29 PM

Does anyone really live long enough in this game to make this an issue to begin with? In a crazy battle scenario, it is unlikely that an engy or medic will live long enough to run out of whatever resource happens to drive their tool. And if they do happen to live that long, all the mechanic would do is force them to run to a sunderer to resupply which is unfun.

So the OP is proposing an unfun mechanical solution to a problem that probably does not exist.

The things that can kill other players are limited (ammo and mines). That is good enough.

Figment · 2013-03-11, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by mrmrmrj

Does anyone really live long enough in this game to make this an issue to begin with? In a crazy battle scenario, it is unlikely that an engy or medic will live long enough to run out of whatever resource happens to drive their tool. And if they do happen to live that long, all the mechanic would do is force them to run to a sunderer to resupply which is unfun.

Inconveniencing someone isn't per definition unfun. Don't just look at the user, but the person he's opposing. Why is it that the "unfun" argument is always portrayed from the user perspective, never from the perspective of the person they're exploiting the lack of limitation against?

Ammo attrition forces a retreat of a tank currently. Why shouldn't repair attrition? The opposition worked hard enough to put damage on it, why shouldn't they be rewarded with fending the attacker off over time?

I can assure you people live long enough to have been constrained. Particularly tanks, ammo packs and other tools can be used for a long time.

Well beyond the time that was needed in PS1 to run out of juice. You needed a whole lot of repair gun cannisters to repair everything in a base or a couple tanks. In PS2, I and my outfit mates frequently last for well over half an hour in a couple vehicles and repair them constantly.

If we're talking jetpack stuff, you have any idea how much I use it without thinking about it? I spend 50% of my PS2 time in LA constantly jumping from building to building and climbing the silliest of cliffs, then walls, more buildings, more walls, more buildings... I sometimes survive for five to ten minutes in a base. Any idea how many jumps I've done then?

So the OP is proposing an unfun mechanical solution to a problem that probably does not exist.

Speculative and poorly supported conclusion.

Ghoest9 · 2013-03-11, 06:29 PM

These are bad ideas that would just punish people who try not to die and encourage even worse banzai play style than we already have.

Silent Thunder · 2013-03-11, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

These are bad ideas that would just punish people who try not to die and encourage even worse banzai play style than we already have.

Sadly this is pretty much true. If someone runs out of their "juice" so to speak, they'd have two options, run back to the AMS/SCU and rearm, or immediatly throw themselves into the meatgrinder, try to get a kill or two, and then respawn back at that same AMS/SCU. And I can damn well guarantee that it would be the second option most people would take.

Ghoest9 · 2013-03-11, 06:36 PM

And for the record the people talking about unfun play with repect to the LA are completely right.

Its a weak class in every way except the jets. People play the clas because the jets are so fun to use. And you use them ALL the time that you are moving practically.
The jets are the playstyle that define the class.

If you took that away after we learned to play the class with them - I would probably just play a lot less PS2 and maybe even quit out of resentment.

Carbon Copied · 2013-03-11, 06:37 PM

Purely from an Engi and Medic player: rather than having to go back to "resupply <insert consumable fuel type for applicator here>" why not have it as a manual charging mechanic in the vein of Metro 2033's flashlight; this would give the user dilemma of "do I charge it now or have enough juice for one more heal" while still having that option to resupply at a terminal.

Level 1 applicators hold less "heal points" but take less time to juice up because of that however require more frequent charging as they heal slower to begin with

to the other end of the scale

Level 6 applicators hold more "heal points" but take longer to juice up because of this however require less charges as they heal faster anyway

Etc.. (think I've got that the right way round)

If something like this was ever considered this is how I'd prefer the implication - its a tactical decision but it doesn't rely on you being near a resupply point either to interrupt your battle too much; fun to me as a medic isn't supporting a push then defaulting to "rifleman" when I've run out of healing ability.

I don't think the tank rounds are really a good comparison though when the magazine is massive and secondly an ammo sunderer can just sit behind stat padding by re-supplying. Personally I think certain vehicles carry too much ammo full stop but that's another topic entirely..

ChipMHazard · 2013-03-11, 07:14 PM

I think making nanites and fuel a finite resource would make for a lot of "back and forth" gameplay, which we have with vehicles if there isn't an ammo sundie nearby. Of course vehicles are faster than infantry, so backtracking isn't as punishing. You could argue that there is already enough infantry backtracking to S-AMS'/terminals that it wouldn't really be a problem adding in more.
I'm not sure that this idea would require for the nanites to be a finite resource, just something that can be depleted to such an extent that you have to wait for it to refill again slowly. Again you could argue that it would create an equal amount of backtracking as having them be finite.

For example allow a combat medic to spend all of the nanites down 0%, could make reviving require more nanites than just healing, and then have to wait until the bar reaches +10% before you're able to use the tool again.
Same goes for engineers. Have the nanites required be based on how damage a vehicle is?
An uncerted tool could have a slower regen rate, requiring a higher threshold to be reached before use etc.
I think you could make more tweaks if the nanites weren't a finite resource.
Same principle would go for LA, although that would be trickier to do. Perhaps have them deplete a set of tanks that replenish over time, the higher cert the more tanks? The more tanks that are depleted the slower the your fuel will replenish? I'm just spitballing here. I don't think making fuel something that can be completely depleted, until resupplied at a terminal, is such a good idea since you would still have to give them enough fuel to actually be useful.

What I'm trying to explain through my ramblings is that while I do agree with your premise; Wanting medics, engineers and LA's to have more downtime while also making certain certs more desirable as a direct result, I don't necessarily agree with your proposed solutions.

Redshift · 2013-03-11, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Gonefshn

Why would you need inventory to have ammo for med tools/ammo packs etc?

It works fine already with C4, medkits, heck even with guns.

A med applicator ammo would be no different than ammo in a gun, you just need an equipment terminal to resupply. And certs could increase the ammo you can hold.

because you can't choose how much of everything to bring, if you're doing some organised squad stuff you want your medic to be full to the brim with juice and carry barely any ammo etc.

If you say "medics have 5 revives" then you effectly kill good squad play in favour of zerg and die.

OCNSethy · 2013-03-11, 07:59 PM

I suspect that these proposals would favour the defenders over the attackers in a base scenario.

Since the defenders would have resupply terminals close at hand rather than have to run back to a Sundy thats out of harms way.

Hmmm.... I see merit in this.

Figment · 2013-03-11, 08:01 PM

I disagree that it encourages more suicidal behaviour (no more than people wanting to get more AV missiles, which tbh, is a much bigger issue than running out of medic juice), it'd be more like what Carbon described: turning into a rifleman until a resupply is made.

Getting yourself killed takes you out of the fight and forces logistics on you and your team anyway. Thus it creates attrition - which currently lacks in a lot of cases. You're of more use staying alive a bit longer. But considering the other argument where long term lives aren't there anyway, it's mostly an issue for people that are able to hold out a long time.

I don't agree that "back and forth gameplay" is bad. For lazy people maybe, but then it can be argued that catering to people using "lazy" as an argument creates bad games in general and doesn't force creativity.

If there's such an increase in deaths, you can always penalize getting killed (and especially killing yourself) with longer respawn timers to the point it becomes more attractive to simply stay alive and retrieve or attain new gear from some other source.

And no, short respawn timers aren't necessarily a good thing for gameplay, as long as downtime doesn't become too long.

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

What I'm trying to explain through my ramblings is that while I do agree with your premise; Wanting medics, engineers and LA's to have more downtime while also making certain certs more desirable as a direct result, I don't necessarily agree with your proposed solutions.

That's what discussion is for though, isn't it?

Only named a couple of alternatives before. There's plenty of other ways to do it. You and CarbonCopied named a couple of others.