we need to see the scat max stats. ( devs please read) - Page 12

Rumblepit · 2013-03-23, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Chewy

You want to use that video as proof? Ok, lets use it as an example with a random TR and VS MAX video I found.

PlanetSide 2 - Meet the MAX - YouTube

Planetside 2: Anti-Infantry Max Suit Gameplay - YouTube

NC video thoughts-
Well even with extended mags that dual Hacksaw MAX STILL couldn't get more than 2-3 kills per reload. He was using so much ammo that he RAN OUT at the 50 second mark. With dual hacksaws you have 140 shells total, 70 per weapon. He got 6 kills from using 111 shells within that 50 ticks (he had 1 mag with each weapon and 5 spare between the to pools when getting repaired/rearmed). 111 SHOTGUN shells in a CQC fight for only 6 kills! That makes it 18.5 shells per kill! 1.3 FULL extended mags of Hacksaw ammo PER kill. How the hell is that OP to you?

After that re refilled total ammo to 113 @1:08. Then when he ran into a cluster of infantry and kill 3 more using another 27 shells. Another 16 shells for that LA on the roof @1:30. With the final kill using 4 more shells @1:36. Lets do the math for that MAXes life.

11 kills, 142 shells fired. That makes 12.9 shells per kill. OVER a full extended mag for each kill. I am just not seeing an OP class with these numbers when about every vehicle can get those kill numbers anywhere on the map within mere seconds.

TR video thoughts-
A little old I know, but should still be of use. Up to the 3:15 mark it is rather tame then gets good. That MAX was able to clear that cap point room with little help (up to 3 others with one repairing him it looks). Then @4:07 he cleared that room and held it ALONE. From 4:07 to 4:38 that man was able to get 11 kills ALONE against shielded HAs, medics, and engineers. Is that OP? Getting 11 kills (same as that NC MAX videos first part) within 30 seconds (it took 1:30 for the NC MAX to get 11 kills) while only using about HALF of a total ammo supply (NC MAX used MORE than all of his) seems rather fucking OP to me by using your standards and the video isn't even finished yet. That MAX was able to go on for another full minute before the video cuts out. We don't even know if he was killed ONCE in that entire bio-lab fight!

VS video thoughts-
A lot of cherry picked footage, but is shows about the same as the TR video with miss matched weapons.

Basically, what I am trying to say with this post is that if anything that NC video shows how weak the NC MAX is with the low ammo count and limited viable uses. ANY supported MAX WILL fuck the days of anyone who see it. What make the NC stand out is that we SUPPORT out MAXes because THEY CAN'T BE USED ANYWHERE BUT CQC. With the number of engineers in the game it is EASY for a NC MAX to run into one and get repairs if that MAX CAN'T leave their side. Once a NC MAX looses his pocked engi he is doomed to die FAST from not being able to fight back past 20m. Any stock TR or VS MAX can fight back at those ranges and BEYOND them, watch my tests on page 10 to see that yourself.

If the TR and VS would, you know, SUPPORT their MAXes then maybe people would see just how good they have it with those weapons. Shotguns SUCK for anyone that wants to NOT wait behind a damned door.

(sorry for the CAPs. This "debate" is just getting so very tiring when almost no one else bothers to back up what they claim. And yes, it is making me a bit pissy

)

there is a big difference between the 3 videos that were posted. can you tell the difference? its like one of those puzzle games, "spot whats wrong with this picture" the footage of the nc max is pretty cut and dry.... its him and a few other people, most of the time its just him killing anything he sees by himself.

the footage of the TR and VS maxes in a bio lab camping a kill box,,, well how exactly would you compare the 3? at any give time during the tr and vs max videos you can be sure that there are tones of VS and TR firing into those kill boxes with those maxes..... you post a video and we see a tr max camping a air pad with 20 guys behind him shooting the targets, and then post the same kind of video of a vs max,,,,, and you want us to compare this to a nc max running around killing everything by himself????

you really derped on this one....fail.

Falcon_br · 2013-03-23, 07:41 PM

The truth is, that data will never see daylight.
They already sold too many maxes weapons and bundles to the NC.
If they change what they bought for something else, like a heavy gauss, 36% of the actual players of the game WILL be outrageous demanding money back!
Unless they give shotguns (or flamethrower) to everyone and ruin the game, they cannot admit that the game is unbalanced.
Nerfing an item is normal in MMORPGs, but nerfing a item in f2p (p2w) games, that costed real money, I don´t think it ever happened. It is more common to new overpowered replace the old unbalanced ones.

Rumblepit · 2013-03-23, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

The truth is, that data will never see daylight.
They already sold too many maxes weapons and bundles to the NC.
If they change what they bought for something else, like a heavy gauss, 36% of the actual players of the game WILL be outrageous demanding money back!
Unless they give shotguns (or flamethrower) to everyone and ruin the game, they cannot admit that the game is unbalanced.
Nerfing an item is normal in MMORPGs, but nerfing a item in f2p (p2w) games, that costed real money, I don´t think it ever happened. It is more common to new overpowered replace the old unbalanced ones.

ya know i dont think they want us to see it.... magrider nerf was fought for tooth and nail for months, and till this day people still say it was never op, and the nerf caused alot of VS players to quit. HE prowler was a different story, there were complaints and it was done in 2 weeks..... then we come to the nc max,,,,, people have been raging about this broken POS since day 1,,,,,i think if the data ever did make it out someone would either lose their job, or the nerf would drive away tones dedicated skilless nc max instgibers.

Chewy · 2013-03-23, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

there is a big difference between the 3 videos that were posted. can you tell the difference? its like one of those puzzle games, "spot whats wrong with this picture" the footage of the nc max is pretty cut and dry.... its him and a few other people, most of the time its just him killing anything he sees by himself.

the footage of the TR and VS maxes in a bio lab camping a kill box,,, well how exactly would compare the 3? at any give time during the tr and vs max videos you can be sure that there are tones of VS and TR firing into those kill boxes with those maxes..... you post a video and we see a tr max camping a air pad with 20 guys behind him shooting the targets, and then post the same kind of video of a vs max,,,,, and you want us to compare this to a nc max running around killing everything by himself????

you really derped on this one....fail.

Im sorry but what videos did you watch? That NC video did not have one part where the MAX wasn't supported. He either had an engi up his ass, other NC firing on his targets, or both. Watch it again. In every part but 1 (3:42-3:55) all of his targets where either shooting at something or getting shot. That MAX was kill stealing at best and doing it badly.

As for the TR video. I said that it was tame for the first 3 minutes. During that time the MAX was camping the landing pad doors and the portal room near there. After that is when he was able to clear ROOMS of VS infantry (and a VS MAX) with just 3 people I could see for the cap point and had ZERO help from 4:07-4:38 (that 11 kill streak I spoke of). You could even SEE HAs with their 2nd shields UP entering that room. Where they under fire? Very likely. Where they hurt? No. You can even see one of the HAs loose his personal shield after the active shield is gone, so that means at least one of the entering infantry was 100% healthy on top of all the medics healing everyone. Can ANY NC MAX hold a room that long after clearing that many people inside it all while 100% unsupported? I think not thanks to reloads alone.

The VS video, I half assed that one and just picked the first VS MAX video I found that looked good. Even with a half assed picking it still shows a VS MAX doing things a NC MAX can not by being able to clear rooms without reloading once while being able to reliably engage targets outside 10m.

I derp plenty and many times a day, but not this time from my point of view. If you can use what I gave to kick me in the balls, please feel free to do so. I welcome the pain if it makes this a better debate. At least then this would be more than a bitching contest. It gets rather annoying being the only one to look for the data and bothering to take the time to post details about it.

Rumblepit · 2013-03-23, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Chewy

Im sorry but what videos did you watch? That NC video did not have one part where the MAX wasn't supported. He either had an engi up his ass, other NC firing on his targets, or both. Watch it again. In every part but 1 (3:42-3:55) all of his targets where either shooting at something or getting shot. That MAX was kill stealing at best and doing it badly.

As for the TR video. I said that it was tame for the first 3 minutes. During that time the MAX was camping the landing pad doors and the portal room near there. After that is when he was able to clear ROOMS of VS infantry (and a VS MAX) with just 3 people I could see for the cap point and had ZERO help from 4:07-4:38 (that 11 kill streak I spoke of). You could even SEE HAs with their 2nd shields UP entering that room. Where they under fire? Very likely. Where they hurt? No. You can even see one of the HAs loose his personal shield after the active shield is gone, so that means at least one of the entering infantry was 100% healthy on top of all the medics healing everyone. Can ANY NC MAX hold a room that long after clearing that many people inside it all while 100% unsupported? I think not thanks to reloads alone.

The VS video, I half assed that one and just picked the first VS MAX video I found that looked good. Even with a half assed picking it still shows a VS MAX doing things a NC MAX can not by being able to clear rooms without reloading once while being able to reliably engage targets outside 10m.

I derp plenty and many times a day, but not this time from my point of view. If you can use what I gave to kick me in the balls, please feel free to do so. I welcome the pain if it makes this a better debate. At least then this would be more than a bitching contest. It gets rather annoying being the only one to look for the data and bothering to take the time to post details about it.

wtf are you on man????????? look at that nc video hes killing everything outside 10ms????helll hes killing everything outside 20ms and doing it faster than a TR and VS max.. but this dosnt mean anything like i said....you cant prove weather or not something is balanced by watching a video.....when the devs do a balance pass on content they dont sit down and watch footage of the item and balance from there. they look threw the numbers they get when people test these items....
I WANT TO SEE THIS DATA.... i want to know who drooped the ball on this.

if this game is so balanced, why did MLG tell SOE they had to have common pool weapons for tournaments?...

on a side note,,,, i cant wait to see a nc outfit get invited to a MLG turny because they been sat padding their outfit with maxes.do you know why? because they wont allow that nc max to be used

then they will get rolled and i will lol for weeks on end.

Chewy · 2013-03-23, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

wtf are you on man????????? look at that nc video hes killing everything outside 10ms????helll hes killing everything outside 20ms and doing it faster than a TR and VS max.. but this dosnt mean anything like i said....you cant prove weather or not something is balanced by watching a video.....when the devs do a balance pass on content they dont sit down and watch footage of the item and balance from there. they look threw the numbers they get when people test these items....
I WANT TO SEE THIS DATA.... i want to know who drooped the ball on this.

if this game is so balanced, why did MLG tell SOE they had to have common pool weapons for tournaments?...

on a side note,,,, i cant wait to see a nc outfit get invited to a MLG turny because they been sat padding their outfit with maxes.do you know why? because they wont allow that nc max to be used

then they will get rolled and i will lol for weeks on end.

(This is going to devolve fast if Im not careful)

A NC MAX could kill at 100m. It's not a possibility question, but a probability one. Raw data only shows so much, things like real gameplay are VITAL to getting the truth in any matter within a game. Why do you think OP and UP things as well as bug/glitches exist in the first place in any game? Devs have all the raw data they need, they built the damned games after all, it isn't until real gameplay is when these things are seen. Something on paper can read perfect and once put into a game EVERYTHING can turn to shit from that so called "perfect" data. It takes A LOT more than reading numbers to see anything. What I gave is but a TASTE of what the devs have and you know what? With as long lived as the NC MAX is there must be something to what I am saying or we would have been nerfed LONG ago.

I do not have the raw data you are begging for. Sorry about that, but I can't do better than what I gave for now. At least I am TRYING to support my claims. You and your side REFUSE to play ball. Pull your own data like I have and USE IT. Give us something to work with. Pull your own numbers, make or post videos that show what you claim, EXPLAIN why you are right in this debate. WE CAN NOT DO SHIT IF YOU REFUSE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS!

Im done. Why the fuck am I doing this if those ASKING for the data refuse to use what data we have? Either backup your claims with your own facts/data or shut up and shove those opinions where they belong. Im getting sick of this shit. Going to play Minecraft.

TheSaltySeagull · 2013-03-23, 11:47 PM

The NC max is a dumb design and needs to be changed to be more on par with the other max units. A shotgun armed max is just stupid in ps2. It is a unit that will be ridiculously OP in short range and laughably UP at longer ranges which is like I said a dumb design.

It should have guass rifle styled armaments so its performance is more even at different ranges like the other max units and less lopsided like it is now. Its not a question of OP or UP its a fact that the NC max is a flat out broken design in terms of gameplay. Depending on the range you will either straight up destroy everything or be near useless and thats just bad design.

BIGGByran · 2013-03-23, 11:49 PM

I play NC and I want to see the NC Max stats. If they need a nerf, then so be it. I pretty much play Infantry exclusively. They judge balance by stats, let it be done with everything in the game. It is hard to balance things any other way in this game when there is so many variables. You guys need to tweet Higby requesting this info otherwise it will be ignored. I already tweeted him but 1 person isn't going to get the stats shown. Everyone needs to tweet him, spam tweet, that we demand Double AI Max K/D Ratio. If everyone just bitches on here and not say anything to the devs, then your just wasting your time.

I have already tweeted Higby requesting Double AI Max stats and told him that there is a heated debate on PSU. Everyone else needs to do this once a day I think so Higby will get the message, maybe even create a hash tag?

#MaxStats

If everyone wants to, lets all make the request to Higby with hash tag #MaxStats maybe if we can get a large enough people to make this request, he will display it for us. I will do this:

@mhigby We request the stats of 2xAI Weapon Max K/D Ratio Vs. Infantry and other 2xAI Weapon Max. #maxstats

as a matter of fact, as I was writing this, I tweeted the exact note above @mhigby. If everyone else can, it would help us get the stats of these max.

snafus · 2013-03-25, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by BIGGByran

I play NC and I want to see the NC Max stats. If they need a nerf, then so be it. I pretty much play Infantry exclusively. They judge balance by stats, let it be done with everything in the game. It is hard to balance things any other way in this game when there is so many variables. You guys need to tweet Higby requesting this info otherwise it will be ignored. I already tweeted him but 1 person isn't going to get the stats shown. Everyone needs to tweet him, spam tweet, that we demand Double AI Max K/D Ratio. If everyone just bitches on here and not say anything to the devs, then your just wasting your time.

I have already tweeted Higby requesting Double AI Max stats and told him that there is a heated debate on PSU. Everyone else needs to do this once a day I think so Higby will get the message, maybe even create a hash tag?

#MaxStats

If everyone wants to, lets all make the request to Higby with hash tag #MaxStats maybe if we can get a large enough people to make this request, he will display it for us. I will do this:

@mhigby We request the stats of 2xAI Weapon Max K/D Ratio Vs. Infantry and other 2xAI Weapon Max. #maxstats

as a matter of fact, as I was writing this, I tweeted the exact note above @mhigby. If everyone else can, it would help us get the stats of these max.

Guess I have to go make a twitter account now.

BIGGByran · 2013-03-25, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by snafus

Guess I have to go make a twitter account now.

If it gets the devs to release the data, wouldn't it be worth it?

We need to have a group of people doing this and not just me. 1 person isn't gonna be enough. I play NC and I'm trying to help the TR and VS by possible getting the nerf bat on our MAXs, but hey, if you guys don't want the data then I'm fine with it also, just stop complaining about it on the forums.

This is for anyone who hasn't done what I have asked (and done.)

Speak up with:

@mhigby We request the stats of 2xAI Weapon Max K/D Ratio Vs. Infantry and other 2xAI Weapon Max. #maxstats

or gtfo and stfu about our MAXs. (if your one of the people complaining, not that ones that aren't)

The reason for #maxstats is so that higby can do a search on that hash tag and find everyone's message with the hash tag #maxstats

I appreciate anyone who has done this, but so far, at the time of this post, I am the only one that has done this with the hash tag #maxstats.

Chewy · 2013-03-25, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by BIGGByran

or gtfo and stfu about our MAXs. (if your one of the people complaining, not that ones that aren't)

Well that's a bit over the top. If someone wants to bitch about something they find that may be bad for a game then they have a right to do so. The reason I got so pissed off was due to no one backing up their claims and not them just bitching to bitch.

If there's something that can hurt a game then it needs to be brought to public so that it can be abused to its max and get fixed ASAP. Like how the Phoenix can OHK infantry while the other ESAV weapons can't. As an AI weapon it's rather good/great, yet is wasn't made to be an AI weapon at all. So the AI damage is getting tuned to better fall in line with its role.

To this day I still think that the NC MAX is UP next to TR/VS MAXes. Shotguns are random weapons with a high risk high reward playstyle. They will never be as good as a reliable HMG. Just today I saw TR MAXes keep an entire side of a towers defenders in cover from about 50m out. We couldn't return fire at all without loosing half health. That is something NO NC MAX team can do but any TR or VS MAX team can if supported. That is not right if you ask me.

BIGGByran · 2013-03-26, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Chewy

Well that's a bit over the top. If someone wants to bitch about something they find that may be bad for a game then they have a right to do so.

Your absolutely right about this, and I want to hear what people say and may feel I'm for or agaisn't it. Debates and discussions are great to help a game develop, but my issue is that so many people want this but aren't doing anything about it. If they bitch about it so much but do nothing to get results they want, then stfu and gtfo about the topic. We have the means to get the statistics but if not enough people get together and ask for it, the devs aren't gonna give it to us. I gave them the means, it is now the time for them to act. That's all I am saying.

I encourage getting this statistics out for us to see and make sure our MAX aren't OP (or UP in some cases). The way they nerfed the Mag may not be the best way to see if something is OP or UP but it is kinda the only way they can with so much variable in this game and I feel this is how they should determine if something is OP or UP INCLUDING OUR MAX, it is only fair.

Most people are complaning about Biolabs and how we are OP in it, but on the fights I been in biolabs with NC as the attacker, we could not push out of rooms to get to the points, or even push out of the landing pads. Biolabs are only places were the defenders have the advantage and I think everyone belives our MAX are OP because of Biolabs when we are defending, but in reality, biolabs are the only place were the defenders just have the upper hand. I guess it is because we can't land a sundy on the capture points to beable to reinforce the attack in a short amout of time, unlike the other major facilities where you can park the sundy RIGHT under the capture point(s).

Neutral Calypso · 2013-03-26, 01:23 AM

The solution is simple. Let the NC have their longer-range chainguns, and let the other maxes have shotguns. Problem solved.

And before anyone cries "Wah! Homogenizing the factions!" I really don't see why a faction that sees its weaponry getting outmatched by the enemy would want to keep using their old weaponry if they get a chance to get better, do you?

The Indians didn't whine about losing their distinctiveness the first time an Indian picked up a rifle and started riding a horse after all.

Did you think they won little bighorn with bows and arrows?

Falcon_br · 2013-03-26, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by Chewy

To this day I still think that the NC MAX is UP next to TR/VS MAXes. Shotguns are random weapons with a high risk high reward playstyle. They will never be as good as a reliable HMG. Just today I saw TR MAXes keep an entire side of a towers defenders in cover from about 50m out. We couldn't return fire at all without loosing half health. That is something NO NC MAX team can do but any TR or VS MAX team can if supported. That is not right if you ask me.

Dude, I think you are playing another game, not planetside 2.
Since the introduction of the Phoenix, it is no longer viable to use maxes on open ground.
Today I was holding Esamir ammunitions, I was using an anti air maxes to shot down reavers, what happened? Phoenix rocket to the face, before I got repair, another one to the face.
Also, using the same tactic you said, while attacking jaeger crossing on open ground = Phoenix on the face.
I really want to resets my certs, because flak armor is a must have to any vs/tr maxes, small arms protection is no longer the principal source of damage.

Chewy · 2013-03-26, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Neutral Calypso

The solution is simple. Let the NC have their longer-range chainguns, and let the other maxes have shotguns. Problem solved.

And before anyone cries "Wah! Homogenizing the factions!" I really don't see why a faction that sees its weaponry getting outmatched by the enemy would want to keep using their old weaponry if they get a chance to get better, do you?

The Indians didn't whine about losing their distinctiveness the first time an Indian picked up a rifle and started riding a horse after all.

Did you think they won little bighorn with bows and arrows?

Id gladly buy dual HMGs if the NC got them, wouldn't wait for a sale or anything. That's how good I see HMGs. It's the same reason I got Mattocks instead of any other weapon, just to squeeze a little more range out of my MAX. If getting a ranged weapon meant giving TR and VS shotguns. Then so be it!

This is how I see the MAXes so far.
TR and VS keep the enemy out of defended areas or inside their cover. NC MAXes have to give up ground and either let the enemy inside their bases to be of use or risk charging head first to close the distance.

The myth of most fights happen in CQC is just about flat out wrong. How often have you guys held an AMP stations walls? What about taking root in a tower to stop an attack? Or just fought from one rock to the next and for every inch you can get your hands on? The only times a fight is in CQC is when that fight is about over and in the final push. The rest of the time is in the fields and courtyards to prevent that from happening at all costs.

Ranged battle is key to winning a war. That's why we have AA and lock-on/guided/fast as hell AV weapons. If you don't keep the enemy out then you risk being overrun very easy. And the fact is that TR and VS has that range with their MAXes, the NC just doesn't.

It's like working with the wrong tools, yeah they can get the job done but you wont do that job better then someone how has the right tools.