Magrider Balancing

[JesNC]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

Same armour as the Prowler, afaik.

I was under the impression that Magrider front and side armor were equalized during the big vehicle changes. Reviewing the patchnotes and checking ps2calc.com revealed that I was wrong :/ Doesn't happen too often, sorry

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by JesNC

I was under the impression that Magrider front and side armor were equalized during the big vehicle changes. Reviewing the patchnotes and checking ps2calc.com revealed that I was wrong :/ Doesn't happen too often, sorry

No worries

[Varsam]

I was also under the impression Prowler HEAT and AP shells got their direct hit damage buffed (Vanguard already did more dmg), resulting in an effective nerf to Magrider health in terms of MBT combat. Also, even though Magrider strafing is now back to where it was pre-nerf, velocity increases to Prowler and Vanguard cannons amount to an indirect nerf to Magrider avoidance, which is it's only saving grace (other than the Saron, but I personally think the Saron needs a redesign).

[Falcon_br]

I don´t understand, magmower can always have you front towards the enemy, place front armor on it for the win, also place some smoke and no infantry can hit you.
Of course I am not a Dino lover, so I can´t see anything right about something I don´t know for sure, but that´s what I think about it.
Also it got the best faction secondary weapon from the game, you don´t need any skill to kill tanks/infantry/ESF with it.

[Badjuju]

I don't really get these complaints. In my opinion the Vanguard is far superior to the Mag. I vastly prefer it. I can't comment on the prowler as I haven't used it lately.

The armor, shield, projectile speed, damage, elevated turret, and rotating turret offer stronger benefits than the mags ability to strafe IMO.

I still think allot of this has to do with people using tanks incorrectly. Everyone still wants to Rambo in when they should be behind their infantry lines at all times, laying down supportive fire power and allowing the infantry to provide protection in return. The mag has more forgiveness when it comes to over extending, but the Vanguard provides many more benefits for those who play smarter with their tanks IMO.

I find the benefits of its strafing ability to be over exaggerated. I have no issues timing my shots (tank or launcher) to when a mag changes direction. If you place your shot just as they start shifting directions, they typically don't have time to change again before your shot lands. You just have to be more patient when taking shots and timing them right. A good standard tank driver can produce similar dodging capabilities by orienting their tank at an angle, allowing them to laterally change their position while moving forward and backwards to avoid shots, or simply pull back behind cover.

The stationary turret of the mag is a huge weakness as well. It leaves the mag extremely succeptible to being flanked. If you flank the mag rider a good angle you put them in a position where they have to expose their flank to either you or your friendly soldiers if he wishes to engage. The only other alternative is to try and back out of the situation, but at that point the damage has usually been done and their is little hope for escape. With a rotating turret you have much more control over the orientation of your ass, which is particularly useful when engaging multiple groups of enemies in a very shifty battlefield, and defending against flanking units.

The low turret on the mag is also extremely annoying.

The mag isn't a bad tank by any means, but I much prefer the Vanguard. I am sure that there are some that prefer the mag for their play style, but that is all part of balancing and having unique traits for different factions vehicles. With the mag you give up armor, projectile speed, a rotating turret, and damage (mag is the lowest) for more maneuverability. The prowler has less armor as well, but is the fastest tank, best AI tank still (I think), and has the ability to put a ton of fire power down range, especially when properly supported. The vanguard is slow and clunky but takes the most damage.

You can't forget about the annihilator, av lock on launchers, AV turret, Phoenix, and the striker either. They don't give shit about the Mags strafing.

I'm not sure how the vanguard and prowler damage stands presently. The prowler had gotten a 15% damage buff to both heat and HE rounds, giving it more overall damage than the Van after both rounds were fired (GU4 i believe). I am not sure where they re-adjusted it though after the nerf. I think it is still more powerful than it was pre-GU4, aside from the radius adjustment which effected all tanks. I see people say it was nerfed into the ground, but their complaints seem to coincide with the radius nerf which effected all tanks.

[Badjuju]

The saron is very good as some one stated, I'll give it that.

[Varsam]

Originally Posted by Badjuju

I don't really get these complaints. In my opinion the Vanguard is far superior to the Mag. I vastly prefer it. I can't comment on the prowler as I haven't used it lately.

The armor, shield, projectile speed, damage, elevated turret, and rotating turret offer stronger benefits than the mags ability to strafe IMO.

I still think allot of this has to do with people using tanks incorrectly. Everyone still wants to Rambo in when they should be behind their infantry lines at all times, laying down supportive fire power and allowing the infantry to provide protection in return. The mag has more forgiveness when it comes to over extending, but the Vanguard provides many more benefits for those who play smarter with their tanks IMO.

I find the benefits of its strafing ability to be over exaggerated. I have no issues timing my shots (tank or launcher) to when a mag changes direction. If you place your shot just as they start shifting directions, they typically don't have time to change again before your shot lands. You just have to be more patient when taking shots and timing them right. A good standard tank driver can produce similar dodging capabilities by orienting their tank at an angle, allowing them to laterally change their position while moving forward and backwards to avoid shots, or simply pull back behind cover.

The stationary turret of the mag is a huge weakness as well. It leaves the mag extremely succeptible to being flanked. If you flank the mag rider a good angle you put them in a position where they have to expose their flank to either you or your friendly soldiers if he wishes to engage. The only other alternative is to try and back out of the situation, but at that point the damage has usually been done and their is little hope for escape. With a rotating turret you have much more control over the orientation of your ass, which is particularly useful when engaging multiple groups of enemies in a very shifty battlefield, and defending against flanking units.

The low turret on the mag is also extremely annoying.

The mag isn't a bad tank by any means, but I much prefer the Vanguard. I am sure that there are some that prefer the mag for their play style, but that is all part of balancing and having unique traits for different factions vehicles. With the mag you give up armor, projectile speed, a rotating turret, and damage (mag is the lowest) for more maneuverability. The prowler has less armor as well, but is the fastest tank, best AI tank still (I think), and has the ability to put a ton of fire power down range, especially when properly supported. The vanguard is slow and clunky but takes the most damage.

You can't forget about the annihilator, av lock on launchers, AV turret, Phoenix, and the striker either. They don't give shit about the Mags strafing.

I'm not sure how the vanguard and prowler damage stands presently. The prowler had gotten a 15% damage buff to both heat and HE rounds, giving it more overall damage than the Van after both rounds were fired (GU4 i believe). I am not sure where they re-adjusted it though after the nerf. I think it is still more powerful than it was pre-GU4, aside from the radius adjustment which effected all tanks. I see people say it was nerfed into the ground, but their complaints seem to coincide with the radius nerf which effected all tanks.

This guy gets it. SOE, hire him now, please.

[igster]

Originally Posted by maradine

It's an interesting topic. We haven't lost any membership over it, but we certainly don't run mag columns any more. Whether it's substantive or psychological - who can say.

We still roll tanks, but to be absolutely honest - tanks are getting lolpodded all of the time.

I got BR40 in ps1 in a magrider pretty much the whole time. We still tank a lot in PS2.

Since the latest patch with all of the lockons and herp derping TR heavy assaults out there we are finding that we are only facing heavy assaults with strikers and lock on missiles or fleets of air-cav lolpodding us.

Noone is pulling armour because they end up being killed in under 10 seconds by aircraft after taking 5-10 minutes getting to a front line. Mostly with a cheap shot up the rear armour when being zerged by foot troops or multiple aircraft.

This weekend we've hardly been in a tank because there no other tanks to kill to have an enjoyable fight. Probably one of the highest population weekends in the game and we choose to fight as infantry.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Chris Talon

so now that the Magrider got it's strafing ability completely back, when are they going to balance the tank ?

I'm confused. The other tanks were buffed and this is no longer an issue I thought? I mean for me as a Magrider the Prowler and Vanguard don't miss. It doesn't matter if I can strafe anymore since the velocity of their rounds no longer allow it to miss. Are you missing shots a lot with the strafing?

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by Xaine

People seem to forget the massive weaknesses the Magrider has vs the other tanks every time this comes up. Both the Prowler and the Vanguard have turrets, where as the Mag's gun is fixed - so you need to turn the whole tank to shoot at something. In a game where the back armour of a tank is far weaker than the front, thats a very big deal.

Yeah, that's what I don't understand...
HOW is that a weakness?

Originally Posted by igster

Disagree completely with this.

I do think, however, that the locational damage model just doesn't work with tanks. I like 1/2 shotting tanks and the idea of flanking targets to gain an advantage, however, I do not think that it provides for good balance.

The tracked vehicles are too disadvantaged.

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

I don´t understand, magmower can always have you front towards the enemy, place front armor on it for the win, also place some smoke and no infantry can hit you.

What you Magriders fail to realise is that in a Tank-on-tank fight, the Mag always has its weakpoint pointed AWAY from whatever it's shooting at.
This is both a positive and negative trait because as long as you are shooting at whatever is damaging you, you are already facing it with your strongest armor.

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

Also it got the best faction secondary weapon from the game, you don´t need any skill to kill tanks/infantry/ESF with it.

It also is a good argument for the MBT's to be made into Driver/Gunner affairs, but I'll get into that later...

Originally Posted by Badjuju

I don't really get these complaints. In my opinion the Vanguard is far superior to the Mag. I vastly prefer it. I can't comment on the prowler as I haven't used it lately.

The armor, shield, projectile speed, damage, elevated turret, and rotating turret offer stronger benefits than the mags ability to strafe IMO.

I don't know, does the Mag's projectile move slower?
In any event, most of these benefits are only useful in a straight-up fight over flat terrain.
The Mag comes into it's own when it makes uses of the terrain as a Tank Hunter, where it's gliding allows it to bob and weave behind cover.
It's a sniper that should never be caught standing still firing from one location.

Originally Posted by Badjuju

I still think allot of this has to do with people using tanks incorrectly. Everyone still wants to Rambo in when they should be behind their infantry lines at all times, laying down supportive fire power and allowing the infantry to provide protection in return. The mag has more forgiveness when it comes to over extending, but the Vanguard provides many more benefits for those who play smarter with their tanks IMO.

Well you are correct about Rambo-tanks ruining mechanized warfare in this game, but the Mag itself is kind of an odd duck when it comes to over-extension.

Yeah, against other vehicles it's more forgiving due to the fewer number of easily trackable large targets, but sparsely scattered Infantry is the real tinsel in the Roomba's brushes when it comes to their "Lack" of Turret.
Which is the actual problem here, Mag's where the main cannon is on the nose play like super-heavy infantry!

So not only do you have the spam issues created by One-man MBTs, but now you have a tank that is basically a straight upgrade from regular foot-slogging with the only real downside of being a much higher priority target.

Originally Posted by Badjuju

I find the benefits of its strafing ability to be over exaggerated. I have no issues timing my shots (tank or launcher) to when a mag changes direction. If you place your shot just as they start shifting directions, they typically don't have time to change again before your shot lands. You just have to be more patient when taking shots and timing them right. A good standard tank driver can produce similar dodging capabilities by orienting their tank at an angle, allowing them to laterally change their position while moving forward and backwards to avoid shots, or simply pull back behind cover.

Well I haven't had much anti-Mag experience lately with the over abundance of NC on Waterson, but continuing to stay mobile in an unpredictable pattern does help tremendously against dumbfire rockets and fairly visible ballistic projectiles.

I don't know if the AP velocity update helped with this since I haven't been in a Mag since Beta, but if you saw the Shooter from far enough away you could pretty much sidestep anything without guidance.
That's what the Mag's greatest strength is suppose to be, being a bitch to hit if the driver knows what he's doing...

Originally Posted by Badjuju

The stationary turret of the mag is a huge weakness as well. It leaves the mag extremely succeptible to being flanked. If you flank the mag rider a good angle you put them in a position where they have to expose their flank to either you or your friendly soldiers if he wishes to engage. The only other alternative is to try and back out of the situation, but at that point the damage has usually been done and their is little hope for escape. With a rotating turret you have much more control over the orientation of your ass, which is particularly useful when engaging multiple groups of enemies in a very shifty battlefield, and defending against flanking units.

Originally Posted by Badjuju

The low turret on the mag is also extremely annoying.

Well that Nose Cannon is my personal problem with the Mag...

It's the only real fucking reason the Devs give for not seperating the Driver from control of the Main Cannon on ALL MBTs AND its necessity for first person aiming limits the Driver's awareness in a Vehicle where reactive movement is its greatest defense!

...Why can't we make the Top Weapon the Main Cannon and stick the Secondaries on the Nose?
Sure the Mag will still be the weakest against Flanking Infantry, but now the driver will at least be able to Manmower them!

Originally Posted by Badjuju

The mag isn't a bad tank by any means, but I much prefer the Vanguard. I am sure that there are some that prefer the mag for their play style, but that is all part of balancing and having unique traits for different factions vehicles. With the mag you give up armor, projectile speed, a rotating turret, and damage (mag is the lowest) for more maneuverability. The prowler has less armor as well, but is the fastest tank, best AI tank still (I think), and has the ability to put a ton of fire power down range, especially when properly supported. The vanguard is slow and clunky but takes the most damage.

Eh, the Prowler's speed isn't much of an advantage, and we have just as valid issues with our Main Cannon that hamper its "DPS" advantage...
Two side-by-side guns on the far left of the Turret are not fun to aim, especially since the first shot's recoil will throw off the second while the reticule is only calibrated for the inner most cannon.

Sure it's great for Anti-Infantry Bombardment and point blank Anti-Vehicle work, but our Anti-Tank Tank is still the Lightning.

Originally Posted by Badjuju

You can't forget about the annihilator, av lock on launchers, AV turret, Phoenix, and the striker either. They don't give shit about the Mags strafing.

Well yes, but this is another issue with Mags playing like Infantry...
If they get in close, they'll either kill you before you could get a dumbfire off, or use the very same cover protecting you to break the lock with a juke and THEN kill you.

Basically you need a Mag to have scooted past unaware of you in order to ambush it, otherwise it will just point its nose toward you and fire.
This is the only REAL reason Infantry are able to "Flank" them in the first place.
If they just stood back and let the footsloggers do the base taking like Tanks are suppose to, Ambushing Magriders as Heavies would be an actual Special Op instead of a common accident...

[Neutral Calypso]

I do not find magriders significantly more difficult to kill than other tanks, personally.
And the last time I chatted with some VS players they were talking about rolling a Lightning column. All-in-all I think this leads me to believe that the magrider is through being nerfed.

[Koadster]

Originally Posted by bpostal

The SKEP is still okay, but for the amount of rockets I'll take the Striker every time.

After the first rocket hit.. Tank moves behind cover 3-4 rockets hit that cover there goes your DPS. Skep does 3 outta 5 striker rockets, only needs 1 to hit with less visual constant lock on, coupled with faster rocket speed and 20% quicker lock on time.

[Varsam]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

...I haven't been in a Mag since Beta...

And that's where you damage your own credibility, commenting on something you have next to no experience with. Mag strafing will only baffle the most novice of tankers thanks to poor lateral acceleration.

[WSNeo]

Keep in mind that it's been noted before that a developer (an outfitmate) said Higby admitted that Magriders are generally fully crewed compared to Prowlers or Vanguards usually being operated by one person.

I think OP needs to make a VS, pull a Mag and go use it alone for a few hours and see how lolop they think our tanks are.

Most Mag drivers flat out buy a Saron (you RARELY see anything other than the stock gun) because the default front cannon and gunner weapons are ass.

[Mordelicius]

Originally Posted by Chris Talon

Hi there,

so now that the Magrider got it's strafing ability completely back, when are they going to balance the tank ? It needs the armor nerf that was talked about before the mobility thing - it really should have the weakest armor of all the MBTs in the game !

People already think it has anyway - it's one of the most mentioned "Moan and bitch" thing in threads trying to preserve magrider op.

What do you think ?

Cya
T

IMO, in terms of the Magrider, keep the status quo. They aren't as bad as they used to be (bad as in OP bad). Right now they are about a close 2nd in MBT next to the Prowler. Vanguard is a distant third since it's an easy target. Unlike Prowlers that will waste you if you keep exposed for too long.

The tanks are as balanced as it had ever been. It's far better when the Magriders were dancing over hills or Prowlers just spamming shots on spawn rooms and killing everyone, in or out.

What I don't like is the Magrider getting some nerf then VS will complain until they get a buff. IMO, keep the status quo.

If they really have to make some tank changes, give the Vanguard some extra survivability. Prowlers are dps, Mags are mobility and Vanguards are about survivability. Vanguards aren't exactly survivable since they are a huge lumbering target.

If not, just keep the status quo.

It's the ESFs that need serious balancing not the tanks, imo