Let's Talk MAXes

KesTro · 2013-04-14, 12:31 PM

So with the last patch NC MAX's finally got hit with the nerfhammer as has been requested for some time. However it's debatable whether or not the nerf went too far. Did it need a damage buff? Sure, I'll admit that, the rate of fire buff is even justified. The reload speed and extra bullet in the magazine that they removed however, really cripples the NC MAX.

The below video describes the NC MAX vs a TR MAX pre-nerf:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5otUpvaRvSA

Outside of 10m the TR max won every engagement, (Minus the grinders which he had to spend 1000 certs on while the TR MAX didn't on his cyclers).

While I have no video comparison as to after the patch it seems the other factions MAXes have taken their place in CQC over the NC MAX. That is where my problem is. While other factions have access to longer range engagements we're stuck with nothing but CQC and we're starting to lose in that regard more and more. Again, as I have no video I'm guessing the TR MAX would win against the NC MAX inside of 10m now.

What is everyone elses opinions on MAX's and MAX balance?

Koadster · 2013-04-14, 12:55 PM

a NC max with 2 scatt cannons will still instagib an infantry man [Scat cannon does 134x6 = 804. 2 shots = dead infantryman, a TTK of effectively 0 seconds] Even at 20meters the scatter cannon does impressive damage. If your using dual mattocks NC maxes become effective at 20-25meters even 30 with lucky shots because it seems theres no damage drop off for shotgun pellets.

That video posted is pretty iffy with the NC max stopping shooting at moments and having been on the recieving end of NC maxes for ~300 hours. They dont suddenly become useless past 10meters.. Thats the maxes operator not the suit/weapon system.

On Connery I know of some dedicated NC max users.. They havent been hindered at all and still steamroll biolabs, its just the average player cant (LMB/RMB INSTAWIN) now though still easily achievable.

Kail · 2013-04-14, 12:56 PM

Much like a pocket engineer being required to be effective, I find the nerf to scatter cannons (and variants) very over-hyped.

Rothnang · 2013-04-14, 12:57 PM

The problem with the whole notion of "It was only good at 10m" is that it's very easy in PS2 to force damn near every fight to that kind of range, because infantry fighting happens primarily in very confined spaces. Also the main issue with it was never that it was beating other MAXes too easily, but that it was one shotting all other infantry.

I think Bursters are overpowered as hell in their current state, and I think AV Maxes might become just as idiotic soon when they buff them.

I don't like MAX Units much because I think they have way too much staying power. The fact that medics can revive them puts them a cut above any vehicle in terms of raw staying power, while having the size and mobility of infantry. I find that a bit absurd.

The only downside to MAXes is needing to be leashed to an engineer, but that's just not really that big a deal given that MAX repairs give double XP, so any engineer will jump at the opportunity.

Whiteagle · 2013-04-14, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

I don't like MAX Units much because I think they have way too much staying power. The fact that medics can revive them puts them a cut above any vehicle in terms of raw staying power, while having the size and mobility of infantry. I find that a bit absurd.

Admittedly I wouldn't mind seeing Vehicle Hulls being able to be revived...

I mean, what's the point of all that debris flying if it's just going to deconstruct ten second later...

ChipMHazard · 2013-04-14, 01:05 PM

My opinion is the same as it has always been, well right after I got to try them out in beta. The scattermax is too effective because of it having a scattergun and the base design forcing players into close combat when trying to cap points.

The problem with the scattergun is that it's designed for close combat which also means that it won't be very effective at medium range and useless at long range. I would rather have them give the NC some sort of slower firing, heavy hitting HMG (Or something similar in versatility).
The scattergun is basicly not as versatile as the rest but it's too effective at what it does best, imo.

I also don't really like how easy it is to take out enemy MAXs' with MAX AI weapons, which might actually help the issues a bit.

KesTro · 2013-04-14, 01:14 PM

Yeah Chip, I've seen you post that in previous threads as well and honestly it may very well be the best route. I don't like the idea of having to spend 1000 certs just to be on an equal field with other MAX's.

While the NC max can instagib infantry a TR and Vanu MAX can do it just as well and at further ranges. While the controversy of that statement isn't lost on me I've been experiencing this more and more as of late. It seems the other factions have regained their confidence in MAX's.

Shotguns in general are very hard to balance, I guess we've seen and are seeing that currently.

Whiteagle · 2013-04-14, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by KesTro

While the NC max can instagib infantry a TR and Vanu MAX can do it just as well and at further ranges. While the controversy of that statement isn't lost on me I've been experiencing this more and more as of late. It seems the other factions have regained their confidence in MAX's.

But that's the thing, our MAXes can't outright instagib...
We've got to shave Full Health Infantry down if we want to kill them.

Shamrock · 2013-04-14, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

But that's the thing, our MAXes can't outright instagib...
We've got to shave Full Health Infantry down if we want to kill them.

Pretty much this, its all about burst damage in CQC, what would you rather have, a target that can shoot back and damage you or one that dies instantly.

Also saw this TR player put some range vids together, made me laugh.

Snoopy · 2013-04-14, 02:05 PM

Ah, the NC never fail to amuse. If only you were stuck with the VS Max, you may actually have something to complain about... or the Lancer... but of course, you lot are so hard done by!

KesTro · 2013-04-14, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Ah, the NC never fail to amuse. If only you were stuck with the VS Max, you may actually have something to complain about... or the Lancer... but of course, you lot are so hard done by!

Implying the lancer is bad, all esrl's have their own spotlight as engagements change.
IE: Every faction's convinced they have the worst esrl.

Originally Posted by Shamrock

Pretty much this, its all about burst damage in CQC, what would you rather have, a target that can shoot back and damage you or one that dies instantly.

Also saw this TR player put some range vids together, made me laugh.

Scattermax Slugs 90m - YouTube

While that is rather humerous the chances of pulling that off in-game are next to none with how twitchy the game is. And honestly I'd rather have a target that's able to shoot back provided I'm able to shoot him as well instead of tickling him(As good as you look in your spandex, there's a time and place for that later).

psijaka · 2013-04-14, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Shamrock

Pretty much this, its all about burst damage in CQC, what would you rather have, a target that can shoot back and damage you or one that dies instantly.

Also saw this TR player put some range vids together, made me laugh.

Scattermax Slugs 90m - YouTube

It's all about burst damage whatever the range. If you can take your victim out in one salvo, they can't take cover or fire back. Which is why I'm a great fan of Dual Falcons.

Not sure what the video proves; difficult to pull off in game; whilst with good aim it is possible to land the first salvo on target if you catch them napping, they is hardly likely to stand still and take the 2nd and 3rd salvo.

Whiteagle · 2013-04-14, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by psijaka

It's all about burst damage whatever the range. If you can take your victim out in one salvo, they can't take cover or fire back. Which is why I'm a great fan of Dual Falcons.

Not sure what the video proves; difficult to pull off in game; whilst with good aim it is possible to land the first salvo on target if you catch them napping, they is hardly likely to stand still and take the 2nd and 3rd salvo.

>Implying TR and VS MAX AI Weapons kill in Salvos...

Point--------------->.
Your head:

KesTro · 2013-04-14, 05:18 PM

After a small skirmish at Quartz Ridge inside the buildings I ran into a vanu MAX, one on one. I assume he was at full HP as we proceeded to unload into eachother. her got me during the reload from a full clip. Can't say 100% of th epellets landed but a good deal hit him.

At the same tiem however I was still killing infantry no problem so what was the problem they fixed here? It seems we're still just as pwerful against infantry but now we're the weakest MAX vs MAX. I guess that could be considered a trade off?

Whiteagle · 2013-04-14, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by KesTro

At the same tiem however I was still killing infantry no problem so what was the problem they fixed here? It seems we're still just as pwerful against infantry but now we're the weakest MAX vs MAX. I guess that could be considered a trade off?

I think so, you'll still explode Infantry at close range, but you'll need a Falcon if you think you'll be fighting another MAX.