ESF Air to Air Feedback for Devs - Page 8

SolLeks · 2013-05-15, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

I'm saying that they wanted Air to counter Air, but Air to Ground was so prevalent that they HAD to buff Ground to Air so that Ground Combat would actually exist.

Really, how many people are going to run pure Anti-Air ESFs?
...The same number who pull Skyguard Lightnings?
When given a choice people are going to want to take the option that allows them the greatest effectiveness on the battlefield.

You may run with a Dedicated Anti-Air group, but some servers don't have Outfits that focus on Air Superiority.
Hell, one of the largest Terran Outfits on Waterson calls itself an Air Force, but I rarely see them Air borne in Force.

Simply put increasing the Flight ceiling isn't going to fix these problems.
Yes you'll create a theater AA ESFs can hunt in, but they will be the ONLY predator capable of taking down Ground Attack and Aerial Transport units that will abuse the hell out of this umbrella.
Basically, you will break the Ground Game trying to please the Air Game this way, as there will NOT be enough Anti-Air ESFs to keep this envelop clear.

The reason for the lack of A2A ESF at the begening of the game was mainly due to how little exp you got for killing air. Back then you got about 75 exp + the pilot to down an ESF, Libs were 100 or so + pilot and gunners. thus getting an easy kill on a infantry that gave you 100 exp was well more worth it than risking a dogfight and getting only 175.

Now downing a lib will often grant me 1000 (I have membership + alpha for 100% boost) and killing an ESF can get me 800+. More people hunt air since its worth it now exp wise. Now I see dedicated air squads going around on Connery taking out everything they see with a mix of A2A and A2G equied ESF + the occasional lib. to top that off, its safer to fight aircraft then ground forces due to how prevalent and powerful AA is.

What needs to happen is this, give ESF a bit more breathing room in the space that matters via nerfing burster max's range to infintry render distance, they are infantry and the smallest, cheapest dedicated AA unit thus they should not be the most powerful. Give skygaurds a bit more range (either via better COF or faster projectile speed) to help protect out to vehicular render range. Let A2A ESF take out the ground attack ESF and this would also give noobs more room to make errors and thus get more planes in the air. this way everything has a intended roll in the fight and you will see dogfights above large battles.

As for you stating that some servers don't have dedicated air, that is no excuse. If your side does not bring air to the plate and the other team does, you SHOULD be at a disadvantage. Same with tanks. No more of this "infantry should be able to do everything alone" nonsense, That is not the spirit of planetside.

Whiteagle · 2013-05-15, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by SolLeks

What needs to happen is this, give ESF a bit more breathing room in the space that matters via nerfing burster max's range to infintry render distance, they are infantry and the smallest, cheapest dedicated AA unit thus they should not be the most powerful. Give skygaurds a bit more range (either via better COF or faster projectile speed) to help protect out to vehicular render range. Let A2A ESF take out the ground attack ESF and this would also give noobs more room to make errors and thus get more planes in the air. this way everything has a intended roll in the fight and you will see dogfights above large battles.

Indeed, but the Skyguard is probably going to need both buffs to compete...

Originally Posted by SolLeks

As for you stating that some servers don't have dedicated air, that is no excuse. If your side does not bring air to the plate and the other team does, you SHOULD be at a disadvantage. Same with tanks. No more of this "infantry should be able to do everything alone" nonsense, That is not the spirit of planetside.

The game is called PLANETside, not AIRside...

As has been said before, I'd rather Air be gimped then the rest of the game be ruined for the sake of Air.

VaderShake · 2013-05-15, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by SolLeks

1. That assumes we have more realistic flight models.
2. the 'fights' would turn into 'high G turn fights' where people with joysticks or keys bound to nose up will win as long as they keep their speed at the correct speeds. It would turn air in basically what BF3 has and to be honest, its not that fun imo (I flew a lot in BF3). Sure fixed wing aircraft can be made to work, but why bother when the current VTOL aircraft are both part of lore and work fine once you master a few good maneuvers. I dare say, don't turn flying in this game into flying like 90% of the other games out there, this type of flying is more fun. I have many times been able to flip my aircraft around and continue to fly backwards wile shooting back at the enemy that is chasing me and I find doing stuff like that much more fun than anything you can do with BF3's Air.

BF3 air to air sucks, just like the rest of the BF3 gamepla, it's simplistic slow and boring. Desert Combat mod was better. he question is how to make air to air combat better not how to continue to promote aircraft raping soft targets in PS2 by hovering.

Upping the XP for killing air to air, giving people more flight room with faster more exciting aircraft to fly (like driving the Harrasser on the ground) would make me want to get in the air more. Right now aircraft seem more like troop rape machines rather than mighty airforces battling for control in the sky.

If they add larger air battleships like the concept art shows that would help tremendously if they are not going to change the way the current aircraft fly.

ps.

I'm not hating on the current aircraft I enjoy very much shooting them out of the sky with any means neccessary, but the air to air combat needs some help.

SolLeks · 2013-05-15, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by VaderShake

BF3 air to air sucks, just like the rest of the BF3 gamepla, it's simplistic slow and boring. Desert Combat mod was better. he question is how to make air to air combat better not how to continue to promote aircraft raping soft targets in PS2 by hovering.

Upping the XP for killing air to air, giving people more flight room with faster more exciting aircraft to fly (like driving the Harrasser on the ground) would make me want to get in the air more. Right now aircraft seem more like troop rape machines rather than mighty airforces battling for control in the sky.

If they add larger air battleships like the concept art shows that would help tremendously if they are not going to change the way the current aircraft fly.

ps.

I'm not hating on the current aircraft I enjoy very much shooting them out of the sky with any means neccessary, but the air to air combat needs some help.

When you fly air to air, do you get into good dogfights or is it always chased / chase?

Good video set on how to really fly the ESF, only 3 out so far but its Spadar so the rest will be good I am sure.

They don't feel like troop rape machines to me at all, Sure I will rotary a few infantry as my outfit takes a base, but that is not my main roll and not what I do if there are other ESF in the area.

Edit~ To be honest, my reaver feels more like a paper plane than a troop murder machine, 3 guys shooting LMGs at me will force me to go away but for some reasion, people just don't seem to do that much (I do when being attacked by ESF, made many run away). Also I agree with you on the BF3 gameplay, but that is what a lot of people seem to want to do to air.

Obstruction · 2013-05-15, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Higby

Good ideas in here!

I've been lurking in the thread for a few days and I just want to make sure that everyone understands what we're trying to do and when you can expect to see it. Our main goal here is to create some new, rewarding specs for ESFs to fly besides air-to-ground or more commonly hybrid specs like pods+rotaries which have no real downside. By creating some dedicated air-to-air specs and more specifically anti-ESF air-to-air specs, we hope that we can shift some number of pilots away from farming ground, and allow air to counter the ones that remain there a bit better. Ideally this results in fewer people being forced to run anti-air as infantry, and therefore makes close air-support a role with a bit more depth than "if there are lots of burster MAXes I'm done here, if not I win"

All of these changes are still 100% on the drawing board, they're not something you should expect to see in the next update or even the one after that - it's at least 3-4 GUs away, so please do keep the ideas flowing!

what about AA firing from behind the spawn shield? is that emergent gameplay? on connery i just saw at least 3 of the top 100 players, including the number 1, firing as a max from behind spawn shields.

just make the whole base a warpgate bubble if that's your emergent G2A game.

RaTzo · 2013-05-15, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Higby

Good ideas in here!

I've been lurking in the thread for a few days and I just want to make sure that everyone understands what we're trying to do and when you can expect to see it. Our main goal here is to create some new, rewarding specs for ESFs to fly besides air-to-ground or more commonly hybrid specs like pods+rotaries which have no real downside. By creating some dedicated air-to-air specs and more specifically anti-ESF air-to-air specs, we hope that we can shift some number of pilots away from farming ground, and allow air to counter the ones that remain there a bit better. Ideally this results in fewer people being forced to run anti-air as infantry, and therefore makes close air-support a role with a bit more depth than "if there are lots of burster MAXes I'm done here, if not I win"

All of these changes are still 100% on the drawing board, they're not something you should expect to see in the next update or even the one after that - it's at least 3-4 GUs away, so please do keep the ideas flowing!

We just need the ESF to be great at specific roles.

An A2G - Anti Armour ESF should be able to defend itself against a light air attack, but it should be VERY effective against armour. You shouldn't be able to hunt Libs and Tanks, but you shouldn't be insta-gibbed every time an A2A ESF shows up or a Lib rams you.

This should play the same with A2G anti personnel and A2A ESFs.

An A2A ESF should have little to no ability to engage ground targets.

ALSO - Lockons and Flares (or smoke for armour for that matter) - this whole system needs to be revamped. This is a balance system that trades skill and tactics for timers. If your flares are faster than the reload of your enemy you always win. If the reload time of your enemy is faster than your flares you always loose. This is completely displeasing for everyone involved.

ESFs need to be great at something again. They don't need to be great at everything, but they need to be great at something. They take too much skill, time, and certs for them to be as absolutely impotent as they are right now.

The idea that "if there is lots of AA I loose and if there is none I win" is close to the truth but it isn't entirely accurate. AA is VERY powerful and almost always INSTANTLY available.

If there is AA around the area is (usually) denied to ESFs if there is no AA around then the people getting "farmed" are without excuse. AA is a Max spawn away.

I hope you read and consider these things well Matt.

RaTzo · 2013-05-15, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Higby

Good ideas in here!

I've been lurking in the thread for a few days and I just want to make sure that everyone understands what we're trying to do and when you can expect to see it. Our main goal here is to create some new, rewarding specs for ESFs to fly besides air-to-ground or more commonly hybrid specs like pods+rotaries which have no real downside. By creating some dedicated air-to-air specs and more specifically anti-ESF air-to-air specs, we hope that we can shift some number of pilots away from farming ground, and allow air to counter the ones that remain there a bit better. Ideally this results in fewer people being forced to run anti-air as infantry, and therefore makes close air-support a role with a bit more depth than "if there are lots of burster MAXes I'm done here, if not I win"

All of these changes are still 100% on the drawing board, they're not something you should expect to see in the next update or even the one after that - it's at least 3-4 GUs away, so please do keep the ideas flowing!

Originally Posted by Obstruction

what about AA firing from behind the spawn shield? is that emergent gameplay? on connery i just saw at least 3 of the top 100 players, including the number 1, firing as a max from behind spawn shields.

just make the whole base a warpgate bubble if that's your emergent G2A game.

I think that protected spawns are a good idea. I think that people being able to shoot out of protected spawns is a TERRIBLE idea.

VaderShake · 2013-05-15, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by SolLeks

When you fly air to air, do you get into good dogfights or is it always chased / chase?

V-Thrust Flight Tutorial: Part One - Keybindings - YouTube

Good video set on how to really fly the ESF, only 3 out so far but its Spadar so the rest will be good I am sure.

They don't feel like troop rape machines to me at all, Sure I will rotary a few infantry as my outfit takes a base, but that is not my main roll and not what I do if there are other ESF in the area.

Edit~ To be honest, my reaver feels more like a paper plane than a troop murder machine, 3 guys shooting LMGs at me will force me to go away but for some reasion, people just don't seem to do that much (I do when being attacked by ESF, made many run away). Also I agree with you on the BF3 gameplay, but that is what a lot of people seem to want to do to air.

I guess I'm jsut trying to say it seems to me aircraft as they currently stand are more interested in focusing on killing ground targets than each other right now and the hover ability seems to augment that. Why not remove or severly limit the hover ability and rely more on straffing runs to encorage more air to air play with higher xp for winning dog fights. I would also rather have dumb bombs added to aircraft for hitting ground targets than hover machine guns and rockets....I don't mind the rockets so much because they are limited.

Also I do not fly much (yet) but have in other games, we are trying to evolve our small outfit from ground pounding with infantry to utilizing land vehicles now. After they get better at that we can move on to air power.

Obstruction · 2013-05-15, 03:21 PM

I think that protected spawns are a good idea. I think that people being able to shoot out of protected spawns is a TERRIBLE idea.

you forgot to mention how they can run back into the shield after they leave.

the way that the tunnels move you quickly and spit you out of a one way exit is a good way to do protected spawns.

too bad they spit you out into a deathtrap instead of someplace useful.

RaTzo · 2013-05-15, 03:51 PM

On more thing.

I don't care about "great dogfights" or "great A2G battles" I care about the ESF MATTERING to the effort to win and hold territory.

I think ESFs should be effective and well rewarded for fulfilling meaningful missions in the area of operations.

Right now we ESF pilots don't really matter. We help in fringe ways but if we were not in the game the war would look almost entirely the same.

VGCS · 2013-05-15, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by SolLeks

A lot of good pilots use pods, but they reconize that they will be outclassed by someone using AB tanks as the AB tanks let pilots do more thruster manuvers. I have not gotten hit by rocketpods in a long time since I started using ABpods and I am able to dodge a lot of the so called 'god tear' nosegun fighters (snafu, babacua, nox. Wile I am not better than them, I do put up a hell of a fight)

Good for you... I've faced Snafu, Nox, Nuka, etc, even Scourge too. ...but how do you fare against Tyk0?
I've got a nice long video incase you don't know what I'm talking about.

PS: It's actually spelled Tier... And a couple of the more suspicious ones I've reported, haven't shown up in months which leads me to believe you're right about some of that "skill" being h4x that we don't need to account for specifically with balance changes. But it doesn't change my opinion that Pods should be a Primary slot item. That would actually be exactly the kind of buff our Reavers could use if you think about it since we're only supposed to be using them for hit & run anyway...

SolLeks · 2013-05-15, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by VaderShake

I guess I'm jsut trying to say it seems to me aircraft as they currently stand are more interested in focusing on killing ground targets than each other right now and the hover ability seems to augment that. Why not remove or severly limit the hover ability and rely more on straffing runs to encorage more air to air play with higher xp for winning dog fights. I would also rather have dumb bombs added to aircraft for hitting ground targets than hover machine guns and rockets....I don't mind the rockets so much because they are limited.

Also I do not fly much (yet) but have in other games, we are trying to evolve our small outfit from ground pounding with infantry to utilizing land vehicles now. After they get better at that we can move on to air power.

ah I see, you are not a pilot (yet, not harping, just stating) so you don't quite understand dogfights. Good dogfights in this game heavely rely on hover mode to do a lot of good manuvers that will keep our guns on target and keep ourselves out of the enemy's cross-hairs. Watch the 2ed and 3rd video from the set I posted and you will understand why hover is so important. Also, hovering around ground targets invites AA, Nearly 1hitting tank shells, nearly 1hitting dumbfire rockets and the general ground troops to fire at you and kill you, you currently have to do strafing runs on ground targets in order to survive if there is AA up. once you start flying more, you should be able to see this more.

Also good luck when you start, its rough out there today with all the AA and vet pilots. I suggest after certing into the basics (rank 1 for each slot) to start certing the cool down timer quite a bit, or else you will not get much practice time for quite a wile (cert it up until it is like 500 certs for the next level, save the 500+ ones till you have more certs in other stuff).

Originally Posted by RaTzo

On more thing.

I don't care about "great dogfights" or "great A2G battles" I care about the ESF MATTERING to the effort to win and hold territory.

I think ESFs should be effective and well rewarded for fulfilling meaningful missions in the area of operations.

Right now we ESF pilots don't really matter. We help in fringe ways but if we were not in the game the war would look almost entirely the same.

I agree, but I do think to really matter, ESF eaither need to have effective ground attack or Libs need to be effective enough to dedicate a handful of pilots up at all times to get them were AA will fail.

Originally Posted by VGCS

Good for you... I've faced Snafu, Nox, Nuka, etc, even Scourge too. ...but how do you fare against Tyk0?
I've got a nice long video incase you don't know what I'm talking about.

PS: It's actually spelled Tier... And a couple of the more suspicious ones I've reported, haven't shown up in months which leads me to believe you're right about some of that "skill" being h4x that we don't need to account for specifically with balance changes. But it doesn't change my opinion that Pods should be a Primary slot item. That would actually be exactly the kind of buff our Reavers could use if you think about it since we're only supposed to be using them for hit & run anyway...

If Tyk0 is a connery pilot, I have probably fought him however I don't recognize the name off hand.

as for the spelling, I have shitty spelling so don't mind some misspellings or wrong word usage due to spell check + my reading failing me.

As for primary pod slots, I would not mind that change however I think that all ESF should be able to at least defend themselves vs other air, If that means they can only use the default nosegun (or ground attack) if using rocket pods then so be it.

VGCS · 2013-05-15, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by SolLeks

As for primary pod slots, I would not mind that change however I think that all ESF should be able to at least defend themselves vs other air, If that means they can only use the default nosegun (or ground attack) if using rocket pods then so be it.

Well definitely.... I was really thinking that the Extended AB tanks would be "defense enough" against a Rotory+A2AM user anyway. That's basically all that some of the beginner pilots in my outfit could handle frankly. One of the reasons they 'crutch' so much on pulling Tank columns for fighting other Armor is because they can't fly away fast enough from real A2A players. Shaking up the loadout options would really give them a reason to invest in Racer Airframe and get more comfortable pulling Reavers instead of always jumping into a Galaxy or Vanguard like they do now...

CliffordtheDuck · 2013-05-15, 07:26 PM

AA maxes are invincible. They sit behind the spawn room shield. This is broken gameplay.

It takes a lot of skill, resources and certs to utilize an ESF. Anyone can get quick access to a variety of AA that is super easy to use and super effective.

Whiteagle · 2013-05-15, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by CliffordtheDuck

It takes a lot of skill, resources and certs to utilize an ESF. Anyone can get quick access to a variety of AA that is super easy to use and super effective.

But the reality is you just suck at ESFs...
Seriously, if you actually HAD the skills to fly you wouldn't whine about Ground AA as it is right now.