Class-Switching Mentality - Page 2

Palerion · 2013-06-15, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Finally Palerion, the Heavy's primary team role is actually Anti-Vehicular/Cheap Bullet Sponge, it's just that the Engineer was given an Anti Tank Turret to make up for the piss poor Combat Engineering they gave it.

And apparently anti-infantry. I've never seen a heavy act as a bullet sponge necessarily for his teammates, and if a heavy ever uses his shield, it's always when he sees an enemy, so that he can have the upper hand. I'm just saying, if the heavy's role is, as you are basically saying: anti-vehicle, anti-infantry, and tank, something seems wrong. I wouldn't call it the "backbone" of infantry fights. I would call it the glory hog of infantry fights.

Yes many planetside players seem fine with this, and I really don't understand why, but I'm sure I'm not the only one with this view. Now, based on what ghoest said on the thread about merging LA and inf, I can only imagine I'll get the same "all who disagree are wrong" treatment. You could argue that Light Assault is the Heavy Assault's more mobile and tactical counterpart, but its weaponry does not support that assessment. Regardless of this rhetoric of how the other classes are supposed to be team players for heavy assaults, it's all hogwash.

A class that excels in taking out vehicles, killing infantry, and "absorbing damage", and can heal itself at any moment, is the very Call Of Duty supersoldier that we are talking about. It has a tool for every situation and can lone wolf it and, quite frankly, doesn't need the other classes. Sure, a medic is always a nice addition, but the class gets along too good without the help of his team. Maybe if his shield was less effective and covered his nearby teammates it would be another story, but that's just not the case. It's currently designed as a self-centered, do-everything supersoldier.

NewSith · 2013-06-15, 07:57 PM

All I see here is:

XXX: Infiltrators and LA's are self-sufficient. That is wrong, because Recon from BF3 is definitely better to have in a squad, rather than a second medic for some unknown reason.
YYY: Go play Battlefield, because you mentioned word battlefield in your post.

I don't see what this thread is about.

Palerion · 2013-06-15, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by NewSith

All I see here is:

XXX: Infiltrators and LA's are self-sufficient. That is wrong, because Recon from BF3 is definitely better to have in a squad, rather than a second medic for some unknown reason.
YYY: Go play Battlefield, because you mentioned word battlefield in your post.

I don't see what this thread is about.

It's about every class having a valuable role, and not just being something that people switch to every so often when a certain rare occasion presents itself in which the class is needed. When 70% of infantry play one class, and only switch to the others on the rare occasion that their services are needed, something is wrong. Sure there are some dedicated medics and engineer who care for the good of the team, but really, most people just want the class that kills everything.

Most people want the supersoldier. Most people want to play heavy assault. Again, if the HA's shield protected less, but affected the team around him, it would be a different story. Maybe different people would gravitate towards different classes, and the population would not be so lopsided. There would be no supersoldier; instead, heavies would contribute to the team and offer shielding to fellow soldiers. They would still be competent in fights, having access to heavy weaponry and lmgs with massive ammo pools, but other classes would be on more even ground.

And then, perhaps if the infiltrator and light assault EITHER merged OR were developed and set apart in their own right more, they would be more attractive for teamplay.

Figment · 2013-06-16, 06:46 AM

They can't merge.

There also shouldn't be a reason for any class to HAVE to be in a group. That just screws over small teams. By making roles too narrow, for example by only giving HA the option for AV, you force everyone in that role whenever a single vehicle turns up.

Class gameplay doesn't work on this scale, IMO.

What people should have, is a selection of options and goals and objectives to accomplish that can be done in multiple ways, some of which more suited or easier to accomplish with certain certs than others, but never exclusive.

Whiteagle · 2013-06-16, 10:09 AM

Indeed, which is again why I hope the Devs have been listing about IFF Shield Doors with individual control panels.
The Panels themselves would basically be destructible mini-shield Generators that could either be hacked by Infiltrators to switch Factional control, shot Star Wars style to outright disable them, or simply navigated around vertically by Jet Pack or Galaxy Drop.

NewSith · 2013-06-16, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Palerion

It's about every class having a valuable role, and not just being something that people switch to every so often when a certain rare occasion presents itself in which the class is needed. When 70% of infantry play one class, and only switch to the others on the rare occasion that their services are needed, something is wrong. Sure there are some dedicated medics and engineer who care for the good of the team, but really, most people just want the class that kills everything.

Most people want the supersoldier. Most people want to play heavy assault. Again, if the HA's shield protected less, but affected the team around him, it would be a different story. Maybe different people would gravitate towards different classes, and the population would not be so lopsided. There would be no supersoldier; instead, heavies would contribute to the team and offer shielding to fellow soldiers. They would still be competent in fights, having access to heavy weaponry and lmgs with massive ammo pools, but other classes would be on more even ground.

And then, perhaps if the infiltrator and light assault EITHER merged OR were developed and set apart in their own right more, they would be more attractive for teamplay.

May I take an offensive stance here and say, that the fact you're saying this means that you yourself don't play Medic, nor Engineer, since otherwise you would never feel the need for them. This, pretty much, renders what you say an empty talk.

EDIT:
Here's an example:
See the middle row in the right column.
And now check the same item in your stats.

Palerion · 2013-06-16, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by NewSith

May I take an offensive stance here and say, that the fact you're saying this means that you yourself don't play Medic, nor Engineer, since otherwise you would never feel the need for them. This, pretty much, renders what you say an empty talk.

EDIT:
Here's an example:
See the middle row in the right column.
And now check the same item in your stats.

Now wait, I do play medic as my main at the moment. I've begun to play that more just because LA felt empty to me, and as much as I tried to make it work, it didn't suit me. But I did stick with it for a good while. HA makes me feel like a killwhore, which is why I don't play it much at all, as you can see. The 10% of which I have played it is me trying to enjoy it, but ultimately I still felt like a killwhore.

I'm really not trying to say anything that would spark an offensive response. My views are always subject to change if someone can make a good enough case to discredit them. But, I don't think you're understanding my point: yes, medics and engineers are useful. But they aren't really necessary when this heavy assault that makes up 70% of the fighting force can get along so well without them. Sometimes I really can't tell what the community wants, because sometimes they talk like they don't want any classes doing too well on their own, because it should be a team-based game, but other times they seem to defend classes that can do everything, really get along fine by themselves, and aren't exactly what I would consider "team players".

Am I misunderstanding the community? I'm on board with the fact that people should be working for the benefit of a team, but then at the same time I can't understand why we have this soldier that doesn't directly support the team, and rather kills everything and benefits from the considerate engineers and medics out there who give him aid.

Please, don't bother taking an offensive stance. If I'm wrong, and if somehow this team play works out perfectly, show me. I would love to feel like the teamplay works well, and it would let me enjoy the game much more, but I'm not seeing it right now.

Again, I'm just not seeing the teamplay. It's not that I'm a crazed revolutionary who wants to ruin the game for everybody, I just can't seem to make sense of the current system.

Ghoest9 · 2013-06-16, 01:39 PM

Ummmmm- team play works really well in this game. It is a fighting game so obvoiously the guy built for fighting is going to be the biggest part of team play.

Team play doesnt mean everyone playing support. It means working together in a coordinated manner.

I say this as somone who almost always solo - but the even to me the huge advantages of team play are abundantly obvious.

I dont think you understand the game.

Palerion · 2013-06-16, 02:06 PM

Where do the LA and Inf fit into that team-play?

And why can't any other class be on the same infantry-killing level as the HA, just without the vehicle killing power?

Timealude · 2013-06-16, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Palerion

Where do the LA and Inf fit into that team-play?

And why can't any other class be on the same infantry-killing level as the HA, just without the vehicle killing power?

Hacking enemy terminals and turrets, reacon darts that help spot enemies easier.

LA are beast at taking out sundies as well as providing cover for the rest of your team with smoke or flash bangs.

Ohaunlaim · 2013-06-16, 02:43 PM

I get where he's coming from.

Infiltrators are anti infantry at long range or short. They can hack and lay down sensors for the team.

Medics heal and revive for the team and can shoot infantry.

Engineers repair and provide ammunition for the team. They can shoot infantry and sometimes kill vehicles with deployables.

Light Assault are anti infantry that attack from odd angles. They can also successfully attack vehicles and maxes at close range when certed.

MAX suits are anti infantry or vehicle or aircraft. They can also split their role between any two of those if they like. They are bullet magnets and shock troops.

Heavy assault are anti infantry at medium-long to short range. They are also anti max and anti vehicle or anti aircraft (or all three) at long, medium, and short ranges.

Heavy assault seems to have a lot of roles compared to the other classes. Some people play HA for the anti infantry work, some for the anti mechanized work, and some for the shear versatility of being able to do both in one class.

I think the other classes feel like they need further development, not because they lack in their ability to do their intended jobs, but because when compared to HA they feel very situational. If HA had been split into a specialized anti mechanized class and a specialized anti infantry shock trooper, then I feel all the classes would have felt equally useful.

Instead what the devs are beginning to do is make all the other classes as versatile as HA. Evidence of this is the engineer. It began with anti vehicle mines, but it still felt like it needed more. Then it got the AV mana turret to improve its anti vehicle use. There are even those that hope the devs add an anti aircraft mana variant, too.

Anyway. tldr: HA is too versatile and so the default go-to class for most players. It could be done better.

NewSith · 2013-06-16, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Palerion

I don't think you're understanding my point: yes, medics and engineers are useful. But they aren't really necessary when this heavy assault that makes up 70% of the fighting force can get along so well without them.

I think that's a misconception. HAs are nothing wthout ammo, like any other class. The point of the HA is, as stated earlier, is "to shoot shit". And it is absolutely natural that it is the most common class in a "shooter".

Moreover from where I am standing at, the Engineer class is actually more of a killwhore, than an HA. Why? Because |Advanced Shield Capacitor + AV Mana + 5 Medkits| is the ultimate killing machine, with Ammo Box being deployable via MANA.

Am I misunderstanding the community? I'm on board with the fact that people should be working for the benefit of a team, but then at the same time I can't understand why we have this soldier that doesn't directly support the team, and rather kills everything and benefits from the considerate engineers and medics out there who give him aid.

And once again - it is so because it is a "shooter", rather than "tactical shooter". Afterall, if the game was implying Teamwork>Shooting idea, than we would have vehicles or even classes without fighting capabilities.

Please, don't bother taking an offensive stance. If I'm wrong, and if somehow this team play works out perfectly, show me. I would love to feel like the teamplay works well, and it would let me enjoy the game much more, but I'm not seeing it right now.

Again, I'm just not seeing the teamplay. It's not that I'm a crazed revolutionary who wants to ruin the game for everybody, I just can't seem to make sense of the current system.

Let you instead give us example of a "teamwork situation" you imagine, based on, say, very BF you mentioned in the OP. I'm an analyst, so it's easier for me to "right wrongs" and "point out flaws" and "suggest", rather than coming up with something compeltely new. Do so, and I'll compare what you have to offer to a similar PS2 situation.

Shogun · 2013-06-16, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ohaunlaim

Anyway. tldr: HA is too versatile and so the default go-to class for most players. It could be done better.

yeah, it could be done better. by getting rid of classes and loadouts alltogether and introduce some sort of free form inventory.

but sadly this would be even less like bf3 and that is certainly the reason why we didn´t get this in the first place.

Palerion · 2013-06-16, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ohaunlaim

I get where he's coming from.

Infiltrators are anti infantry at long range or short. They can hack and lay down sensors for the team.

Medics heal and revive for the team and can shoot infantry.

Engineers repair and provide ammunition for the team. They can shoot infantry and sometimes kill vehicles with deployables.

Light Assault are anti infantry that attack from odd angles. They can also successfully attack vehicles and maxes at close range when certed.

MAX suits are anti infantry or vehicle or aircraft. They can also split their role between any two of those if they like. They are bullet magnets and shock troops.

Heavy assault are anti infantry at medium-long to short range. They are also anti max and anti vehicle or anti aircraft (or all three) at long, medium, and short ranges.

Heavy assault seems to have a lot of roles compared to the other classes. Some people play HA for the anti infantry work, some for the anti mechanized work, and some for the shear versatility of being able to do both in one class.

I think the other classes feel like they need further development, not because they lack in their ability to do their intended jobs, but because when compared to HA they feel very situational. If HA had been split into a specialized anti mechanized class and a specialized anti infantry shock trooper, then I feel all the classes would have felt equally useful.

Instead what the devs are beginning to do is make all the other classes as versatile as HA. Evidence of this is the engineer. It began with anti vehicle mines, but it still felt like it needed more. Then it got the AV mana turret to improve its anti vehicle use. There are even those that hope the devs add an anti aircraft mana variant, too.

Anyway. tldr: HA is too versatile and so the default go-to class for most players. It could be done better.

Exactly. I just want to see the other classes come full circle, and I'm fine with a heavy being able to take more damage, yet have slower-firing, high-capacity weapons, as long as the other classes' higher rpm weapons can balance that out. The fact that their shields can allow them to take a tank shell is plenty to justify playing heavy assault. At least allow the DPS between a combat medic, or an engi, or an LA and a heavy assault balance out. HA still has the advantage with 100 round mags.

Originally Posted by NewSith

Let you instead give us example of a "teamwork situation" you imagine, based on, say, very BF you mentioned in the OP. I'm an analyst, so it's easier for me to "right wrongs" and "point out flaws" and "suggest", rather than coming up with something compeltely new. Do so, and I'll compare what you have to offer to a similar PS2 situation.

Sure thing bro. Support and sniper set up a position in a building nearby a base. Set up machinegun and sniper on bipod, the assault in the squad places a healing pack by their side, the sniper places a motion sensor by them. Engineer and assault go to the point which the support and sniper cover and begin to cap it. As enemies become aware of the cap, they begin to defend the point, but are made quick work of by the sniper and support. The health pack mitigatws any damage that the support and sniper take. Those who pass through are taken out by the assault and engineer. Through the use of the motion sensor, the sniper and support detect someone entering their building. They cover the exits and eliminate the opponent. A tank arrives, the engineer eliminates it with his javelin. The point is capped. Just one scenario in which all four classes are made use of.

Rolfski · 2013-06-16, 03:56 PM

You clearly haven't played enough BF3 because every serious BF3 player will tell you how UNBALANCED the BF3 class system is. PS2's class balance is superior to that of BF3 and one of it's key strengths actually.

In BF3, on anything other than vehicle richs maps and game modes, the assault class just owns; The combo of best anti-infantry guns plus medic packs is just too hard to beat. PS2 will face this danger to a lesser extend for their medic class as well btw with the upcoming revive trains and infantry-only domes. But at least the very powerful MAX class will prevent that somewhat from happening.

The support class in BF3 has inferior LMG's compared to assault and there's hardly need for amo in that game, making that class not that useful. In PS2, the LMG's on the heavies are competitive weapons, which is good and the added AV launchers and shield make the Heavy Assault a very important class.

The engineer is an important class in BF3 but only in vehicle rich environments. In the vehicle rich PS2, that class is even more important, not in the least because of the added ammo packs that are crucial in a game where you can't loot enemies.

The recon class in BF3 is weak and borderline useless, enough said. The fact that they are going to add AV capabilities to it for BF4 says it all. In PS2, sniping is as useless as well but at least the Infiltrator doubles as an insanely powerful CQB class that you absolutely need to hack objectives.

So that leaves us with the Light Assault class, unique for PS2. It needs more use and love, that's for sure. Combining it with an infiltrator would make it way too overpowered though: Sniping/gunning while cloaked from every height, no thanks to me. At least it is a lot of fun to play and somewhat useful in Biolabs and while being squad leader. I expect this class to become more useful when it gets an overhaul in a few months. Expect some added team spot/scout capabilities to it.