Infinite revive isn't balanced for zerg/large scale play - Page 5

KesTro · 2013-07-30, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

Ok, had this game been designed like PS1 environments then yeh i would be for this. But this is a BF clone, on a massive scale. So it works imo. If it was closed spaces where you had chance to take heed of who needs healing first then you could determine who got your juice. In an open mass frantic killfest that is PS2, you can't really make a decision who needs it the most, as most of the time people are dead in 2 seconds anyway.

The only time I can see a change to the medics infinite revives being really effective is when an enemy squad or more is grouped up on a point to stop the defenders from getting to it. Without their infinite revives the people who owned the base would 'eventually' be able to take back the point without completely and totally overwhelming them.

Granted if it was just a squad a good enough couple of players could likely push them out regardless. When is it ever 'just a squad' though? Hah.

Just about anywhere else a defending medic would be able to resupply at a terminal or Sunderer. At least if we're talking about implementing an ammo counter to the revive gun.

My whole gripe here is being against 'infinite' anything.

Imagine tanks and harassers with an infinite ammo pool. Then they would never have to leave the front to go back for ammo (Provided they don't already have an ammo sundy).

That brief little respite more often than not is what lets people get between their lines and start causing some havoc. Now take that idea and apply it to medics. As it is now there is no 'respite' period. You can use and hold it down for as long as you want whenever you want.

Perhaps rather than an ammo counter something like the engineer's heat gauge could work?

Figment · 2013-07-30, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by KesTro

Perhaps rather than an ammo counter something like the engineer's heat gauge could work?

Does the engineer's heat gauge stop Harassers from infinitely repairing?

No?

Then it doesn't work I'm afraid. :/

VaderDSL · 2013-07-30, 12:33 PM

Turn the healing gun into a heat style affair? one revive on max = full heat bar like AV turret which slowly cools down until it hits zero then you can start healing again. revive on infantry puts heat bar to 1/3 or 1/2 until it needs to cooldown/recharge.

Change triage/refund certs and change it to a substantial decrease in healing tool cooldown. That way max revives are more challenging, and infinite revive spam is curtailed somewhat.

Gives the max medic tool cert line a distinct advantage, in that you can revive at full health.

I play medic a lot and wouldn't mind a more tactical usage for the tool.

bpostal · 2013-07-30, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

...
Basically, infinite revives dumbs down the tactical side of the game tremendously in favour of large groups and at the cost of tactical play of small groups....

Would now be a good time to assume that you realize that you're talking about PS2? The most dumbed down game in any franchise since the Serious Sam series?

Of course this game has been watered down, to ease new players into it. This was stated prior to launch and again shortly afterwards.

Figment · 2013-07-30, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by bpostal

Would now be a good time to assume that you realize that you're talking about PS2? The most dumbed down game in any franchise since the Serious Sam series?

Of course this game has been watered down, to ease new players into it. This was stated prior to launch and again shortly afterwards.

Well duh.

I'm not the one calling a removal of infinite revive/healing "dumbing down the game".

I'd call that an upgrade.

Stardouser · 2013-07-30, 06:44 PM

There is no need to make the heal gun have an overheat, the low TTK makes that unnecessary. The problem is in zerg vs fewer situations (or holed up in rooms), you kill the lesser enemy, boom revive all your dead, zero losses. In even combat situations, the low TTK allows you to kill people as they are revived and you'd probably never reach a 2 revive limit a lot of the time anyway, so instituting responsible limits on revives would not harm that section of the game. It would literally only hurt zergs, and small groups who try to rely on revives instead of sunderers/spawn beacons, and that's not really smart play anyway.

Wahooo · 2013-07-30, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

It would literally only hurt zergs, and small groups who try to rely on revives instead of sunderers/spawn beacons, and that's not really smart play anyway.

I don't see the effect on zergs actually. The random revives I get in the zerg are often not helpful and i'm crossing my fingers they've put more than one point in the revive gun which more often than not they haven't. limiting revives I don't see really affecting the zerg much at all, hell that's why it is called a zerg they are running from some ponit en'mass to another. Revives are hardly a tool the zerg is able to utilize properly.

Now this second group? This alone is a reason to make no change. Not smart play? Then you haven't seen it done by a quality group of players using coordination and team work. This would be such a huge nerf to good small ops sort of teams it is just pointless.

Baneblade · 2013-07-30, 07:24 PM

What gets me is the medic tool has no heat build up, but every other tool in the game has either heat or ammo. Why do medics get a pass?

Stardouser · 2013-07-30, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Wahooo

I don't see the effect on zergs actually. The random revives I get in the zerg are often not helpful and i'm crossing my fingers they've put more than one point in the revive gun which more often than not they haven't. limiting revives I don't see really affecting the zerg much at all, hell that's why it is called a zerg they are running from some ponit en'mass to another. Revives are hardly a tool the zerg is able to utilize properly.

Now this second group? This alone is a reason to make no change. Not smart play? Then you haven't seen it done by a quality group of players using coordination and team work. This would be such a huge nerf to good small ops sort of teams it is just pointless.

As I mentioned above, 30 guys sitting in a room, firing on the door, and reviving their dead for zero net losses. 30 guys camping a small outpost against 10 is what I would consider a zerg, regardless of whether it's an organized outfit or not. Same thing for the small squads - they may be using coordination and teamwork but they are still relying on a lynchpin of infinite revives. And in your example of quality small ops teams, who are they attacking? Similarly sized groups?

sylphaen · 2013-07-30, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Baneblade

What gets me is the medic tool has no heat build up, but every other tool in the game has either heat or ammo. Why do medics get a pass?

Because downtime is bad.
(hint: I'm not the one who said it)

Baneblade · 2013-07-30, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by sylphaen

Because downtime is bad.
(hint: I'm not the one who said it)

Irrelevant.

KesTro · 2013-07-31, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Does the engineer's heat gauge stop Harassers from infinitely repairing?

No?

Then it doesn't work I'm afraid. :/

The thing is though, that yes it does. If you keep up your pressure for long enough the engi will have no choice but to repair until he overheats or until he's just about to and has to wait a few seconds for some cooldown to the tool.

It's not much of an opening but it is an opening. Medics don't have to worry about that. As I've stated earlier though if there's any sort of change to the medic's revive tool you will likely see a similar change to the engineers repair tool.

*Edit*: Now that being said I do think there should be a limit to the numbers of players that can repair one thing at a time, perhaps only 2 engineers at once? Have you ever seen 6 engineers all repairing a sundy from a barrage of tanks shells? Feels bad, man.

Stardouser · 2013-07-31, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by KesTro

*Edit*: Now that being said I do think there should be a limit to the numbers of players that can repair one thing at a time, perhaps only 2 engineers at once? Have you ever seen 6 engineers all repairing a sundy from a barrage of tanks shells? Feels bad, man.

A change to the medic tool does not have to be a change to the engineer tool. That said, yes, a limit on number of engineers repairing would be great. Alternatively, I would love to see special ammo for AV rockets that does very little AV damage but when it hits a tank/etc it airbursts and damages nearby infantry (and therefore engineers that are zergrepairing).

And, this doesn't mean it will be an abused AI rocket, for one thing it could be made only to do this when it actually hits a vehicle, for those worried about it being used as a close range instagib weapon for close quarters infantry combat.

Baneblade · 2013-07-31, 06:50 PM

It has long been my opinion that stacking engineers shouldn't result in faster repair so much as it should result in 'shared heat'. Two engineers wouldn't repair twice as fast, they would each have their heat rate halved.

Wahooo · 2013-07-31, 08:16 PM

TTK from everything against everything is so fast, repair/heal/revive seem about right to me.
I really fail to see how in the big scheme of this game this is even remotely on anyone's radar as an issue.

Kill the medics first if you really have a problem, then come back and kill everyone else.