Infinite revive isn't balanced for zerg/large scale play - Page 6

Stardouser · 2013-07-31, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by Wahooo

TTK from everything against everything is so fast, repair/heal/revive seem about right to me.
I really fail to see how in the big scheme of this game this is even remotely on anyone's radar as an issue.

Kill the medics first if you really have a problem, then come back and kill everyone else.

In open ground combat killing the medics is possible and so this wouldn't harm anything. How, however, do you kill the medics when 30 guys, and 10 of them medics, are camping a cap point room, and even if you kill 4-5 guys per grenade salvo(you and a couple of other guys at once), even if all 5 kills were medics, there are still 5 left to get them up?

I really think responsible revive limits need to be tested on PTS, everyone will find that the reality is it will only bring the zerg into balance and won't really harm others.

By the way....instead of a hard cap on revives, ie, your third death you must respawn, if you stay alive at least 60 seconds, one of your deaths could "fall off" the counter so to speak.

Baneblade · 2013-07-31, 10:34 PM

Killing medics is all well and good, but 80% of the time I see someone being rezzed, the medic is shooting the green beam from cover. So naturally I just end up killing the guy being rezzed until he gets tired of dying.

Stardouser · 2013-07-31, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Baneblade

Killing medics is all well and good, but 80% of the time I see someone being rezzed, the medic is shooting the green beam from cover. So naturally I just end up killing the guy being rezzed until he gets tired of dying.

Or, he waits to take the rez until you're out of ammo and then gets up to safety. Removing that immunity might be a good one, too.

BlaxicanX · 2013-08-01, 01:26 AM

Let's be real, that^ happens... what? One in one thousand instances?

No one has ever seriously thought "I'm going to wait until the guy shooting at me runs out of ammo, THEN I'll revive my ally! Muhahahaaaa!"

Serious case of exaggerating in a vaccum going on in here. It's like people being concerned about some weird 4th empire outfit going into a base with a full platoon and deliberately throwing grenades and shit around in order to deplete a base's resources after the resource revamp.

Is that really going to ever happen in-game? No.

KesTro · 2013-08-01, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

Let's be real, that^ happens... what? One in one thousand instances?

No one has ever seriously thought "I'm going to wait until the guy shooting at me runs out of ammo, THEN I'll revive my ally! Muhahahaaaa!"

Serious case of exaggerating in a vaccum going on in here. It's like people being concerned about some weird 4th empire outfit going into a base with a full platoon and deliberately throwing grenades and shit around in order to deplete a base's resources after the resource revamp.

Is that really going to ever happen in-game? No.

I fail to see how people are seriously exaggerating anything in here. As far as medics waiting to revive people until their ammo is depleted it might not happen exactly like that but a smart medic will make sure to res someone so that they're not in immediate harms way. Beyond that most players once revived will immediately run back into the room the zerg is trying to hold.

As far as the resource update goes you better believe people will do shit like that. Maybe not as coordinated as an entire outfit swapping over but you will definitely have your 4th factioners. To think otherwise is ignorant, you don't even need to make another account or launch a new client. It may as well be considered a legitimate strategy.

Stardouser · 2013-08-01, 06:32 AM

It doesn't even have to be the medic waiting to revive someone, but the person being revived waits. All it takes is waiting a couple of seconds when we're talking 30 round magazines. It's not "running out of ammo", it's simply waiting for him to have to reload his 30 round mag then you can easily get up and make it 2 feet around the corner. It can happen at complete random as well(hell I tab out to check email), it is NO exaggeration that the immunity you get while waiting to accept the rez prevents you from being properly executed and re-killed.

KesTro · 2013-08-01, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

It doesn't even have to be the medic waiting to revive someone, but the person being revived waits. All it takes is waiting a couple of seconds when we're talking 30 round magazines. It's not "running out of ammo", it's simply waiting for him to have to reload his 30 round mag then you can easily get up and make it 2 feet around the corner. It can happen at complete random as well(hell I tab out to check email), it is NO exaggeration that the immunity you get while waiting to accept the rez prevents you from being properly executed and re-killed.

I hadn't thought on this too much. Perhaps it would be interesting to see some sort of mechanic on the PTS regarding 'securing' kills. Perhaps you would have to run up and knife someone when they're in their 'downed' state. Or if people would say that woulddl render medics useless perhaps make it a utility item you have to give up your c4/medkits for to render some sort of balance.

Figment · 2013-08-01, 07:13 AM

I really fail to see how in the big scheme of this game this is even remotely on anyone's radar as an issue.

Then read the thread again? :/

Kill the medics first if you really have a problem, then come back and kill everyone else.

The whole problem is you can't do that because the medics keep themselves up and no matter how many times you shoot the medics, they will just keep reviving eachother and the engineer with his ammo pack.

By the time you come back to "kill everyone else" all medics live once more.

Originally Posted by Wahooo

TTK from everything against everything is so fast, repair/heal/revive seem about right to me.

Fast TTK only makes matters worse and rewards infinite revive even more. Those smaller groups die before they can kill all the medics. This means that ANY KILLS YOU DO INFLICT can be considered "never happened".

And that very frequently happens. In the meantime, while inflicting those kills as a small group, you can't get revives yourself (as any medic coming to your rescue would be killed instantly), so having infinite revives doesn't aid you at all.

KesTro · 2013-08-01, 09:15 AM

Send this thread to your friends and have them give their opinion. I'd really like to see this thread get more attention.

Wahooo · 2013-08-01, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

The whole problem is you can't do that because the medics keep themselves up and no matter how many times you shoot the medics, they will just keep reviving each other and the engineer with his ammo pack.

I know but there is a limited number of medics usually. Think of PS1 Gen holds or point holds in PS1 especially AMP stations or Drop Ship Centers. You target the softies first then the maxes right? Why? Because once the softies are dead they can't rep and rez the maxes. In PS1 EVERY softie had the potential to be a medic AND engineer.

Granted there were ammo and the med juice and limited glue BUT it needed to be because everyone was a medic and engie. In PS2 the limit is the classes. Since the inventory system is already nerfed and other parts of the game dumbed down as has been pointed out restrictions on revives seems counter to the game.

A group in a room self reviving and holed up to hold the point isn't some game breaking problem and it isn't insurmountable. It just requires a coordinated push and lobbing plenty of grenades INTO the room. (oh the friendly grenades bouncing back *sigh*) Point is a coordinated couple pushes will get them out, but the argument is "whaaa helps the zerg" when the example is 3:1 odds for the attacker? Really? That is the reason to nerf the revives because people win with 3:1 odds? really? This would hurt soo much more the other way around when a team of 1 or 2 squads is holding an area against 40 or or more base defenders.

I just don't see the real problem in the game play, other than the fact that what people call a "boring stalemate" in this game equates to a few minutes of a fight in one spot rather than just rolling through the map.

Figment · 2013-08-01, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Wahooo

I know but there is a limited number of medics usually.

Too many in my experience. And that's only one way to solve the genhold.

If you kept killing and EVEN DAMAGING the players inside that genhold, then the medics in the PS1 genholds would run out of juice and need resupplies (so you would want to stop anyone resupplying them). That's another way of taking them out by attrition: just ensure they need to revive so many times they can't do it anymore.

Also, those were the guys under siege. Now they're often the ones sieging.

Wahooo · 2013-08-01, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

Too many in my experience. And that's only one way to solve the genhold.

If you kept killing and EVEN DAMAGING the players inside that genhold, then the medics in the PS1 genholds would run out of juice and need resupplies (so you would want to stop anyone resupplying them). That's another way of taking them out by attrition: just ensure they need to revive so many times they can't do it anymore.

Also, those were the guys under siege. Now they're often the ones sieging.

PS2 crowd does not have patience for that kind of attrition.

KesTro · 2013-08-01, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Wahooo

PS2 crowd does not have patience for that kind of attrition.

Nearly every other aspect of the game operates with some form of attrition. Why is the revive tool exempt?

Figment · 2013-08-01, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Wahooo

PS2 crowd does not have patience for that kind of attrition.

PS1/PS2/BF/CoD/Whatever crowd needs to be underestimated and strawmanned less. Tbh.

Wahooo · 2013-08-01, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

PS1/PS2/BF/CoD/Whatever crowd needs to be underestimated and strawmanned less. Tbh.

Fair enough. But attrition takes time and from what i've seen here and more on the official forums people are fairly impatient about progress. I feel my opinion on how long it takes to break a group through attrition is not the same as others. Normally attrition I don't understand to be a really fast process.

How much time is sufficient for the attrition of a 3:1 force holed up on a cap point? Shorter than the already not to long cap time? Would putting a cap on the number of revives even hinder a force with that kind of size disparity? Yet still drastically effect a smaller coordinated group?

I really think putting a hard cap on revives is a bad idea, it sits bad in my gut and I simply disagree with all of the counter point opinions in this thread. I would give in to heat on the gun just like an engineer tool, as it would stop the constant heal spam and make medics choose to revive or heal. That way you COULD break down the medics.