ESF pilots revolt!!!! - Page 6

SolLeks · 2013-08-06, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by maradine

This is my favorite quote, in all its forms.

Sounds like the literal definition of a challenge. What's more impressive - being on top of a leaderboard where 90% of your competition pool never has a chance against you (and you know it, snore), or being on top of a leaderboard where every single kill could have gone much worse?

Someone will still be on top of that leaderboard. Are you implying that, with this change, it will no longer be the figurative you? That, all of a sudden, your asserted superior skill will no longer provide you any kind of edge? That, the law of large numbers will elevate someone else, far less deserving, to the top? No. I assert that, if your as good as you think you are, you will still, in fact, be cleaning up. You'll just be working harder, and in a way you claim to enjoy less, and with more teamwork potentially necessary, for each kill.

So, as a rational actor, it's very understandable why you don't like this. I don't think anyone's faulting you for your opinion here. But you also need to understand that to the other guys in that pile, what you do looks like snoozing through a tower defense level - marking off worthless experience packets punctuated by the occasional interesting fight. Where's the challenge?

This isn't a Streetfighter tournament, where you fight to the top and anyone who complains about the system is labeled a scrub. This is a F2P MMO where the bottom 90% needs to be happy and spending money for the game to survive. If I was SOE, sitting on the button, knowing that what whatever I do might push the "aces" into session-based games with higher skillcaps, I'd find that very unfortunate. But I'd still push the button.

Unless, of course, there's a solution that, magically, everyone likes. For a problem that, admittedly, we're guessing at the definition of.

I dunno man, I just work here.

Well, to further explain that quote (or at least try, here I go);

The proposed change (that now seems like it will not go through, but this applies to any change that will effectively make a skill cap on the game) would change flying in a way that will make player skill less relevant. It will shift from being a flying / aiming / positioning skill set to more of just a positioning / numbers skill set as with forward flight, it is impossible to get a good pilot off your tail (don't say dodge around things, I fly though covered bridges for fun, and as such *your* screwed if I am on your tail first) and having wingmen will be the only way to get anyone off your tail (I consider it a skill to fly and keep up with wingmen in combat and not lose them or run into them).

That said, There will be no 'top of the leaderboard' in this scenario as fighting just boils down to who spots who first, and then so long as the pilot who spotted the enemy first gets on their tail and does not screw up in flight(also assuming no outside interference), he will down that enemy pilot. Now adding interference, A2AM will be even more prevalent as AB tanks will be more or less useless for anti air combat, and more ESF will be fitted with rocket pods to just pod infantry and tanks (they are not losing the ability to 'chopper around' with space bar, just using the AB to do the same).

That will boil combat down to such a simple and basic thing that comes out to
1. who flys highest and sees the other first wins
2. who brings the most friends wins.

Very little player skill will be left and thus, I would have no interest in the flight game as it will be way to binary.

maradine · 2013-08-06, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by SolLeks

That will boil combat down to such a simple and basic thing that comes out to
1. who flys highest and sees the other first wins
2. who brings the most friends wins.

Very little player skill will be left and thus, I would have no interest in the flight game as it will be way to binary.

Without discounting the possibility that you could be right, I strongly suspect this is an over simplification of what will happen, and it would be somewhat of a binary cop-out if you didn't stick around to see exactly what player skill can do in the new model. If there's a new model.

PredatorFour · 2013-08-06, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by SolLeks

That will boil combat down to such a simple and basic thing that comes out to
1. who flys highest and sees the other first wins

Not the case imo. Flying high is going to get your ass shot down alot quicker than hugging the ground. Also, factor in 'if both pilots see each other at same time' which will happen alot. You still gotta use skill to hit them head on and kill them if they are doing the same. Being evasive and lethal at the same time takes skill.

The who brings most friends argument is sadly what this game is about. I got shot down in a thread (pardon the pun) when talking about soloing mbts and someone ranted that i shouldn't be alone in the middle of nowhere fighting and getting killed quick. (think it was talking about tank armor)

Think of it though, once these changes are in we still might be able to find a 'high skill maneuver' even with the nerf. Like the powerslide or something similiar.

SolLeks · 2013-08-06, 02:39 PM

I may hve over simplafied it a bit, but you will not have much in the way of manuvers or being able to run away from someone.

Currently, you can not run from a good pilot, they will kill you no matter what, ace or not.
there are not enough flight physx in this game to do much more assuming the RM was taken away. There is no going faster in a dive or slower in a climb (hint, you go about the same speed doing both) there is no stalling so you can dance on the edge of your flight envelope, unless you count hitting the flight ceiling a stall as it freezes your controls for a second. you will not be able to dodge in between things to get away because any good pilot will be able to follow right on your tail. Using things like conventional flight maneuvers does not work as the counter to that is just slowing down (and in doing these maneuvers, you slow down yourself).

Basically, it will be just -Get ESF on tail- *die*

that and hover turreting.

Oh my, just like in beta, like what most pilots, including myself, did before the RM was figured out! Oh wow, who would have thought that we may have experienced the game without such an *op* maneuver and could put input based on it.

snafus · 2013-08-06, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

Not the case imo. Flying high is going to get your ass shot down alot quicker than hugging the ground. Also, factor in 'if both pilots see each other at same time' which will happen alot. You still gotta use skill to hit them head on and kill them if they are doing the same. Being evasive and lethal at the same time takes skill.

The who brings most friends argument is sadly what this game is about. I got shot down in a thread (pardon the pun) when talking about soloing mbts and someone ranted that i shouldn't be alone in the middle of nowhere fighting and getting killed quick. (think it was talking about tank armor)

Think of it though, once these changes are in we still might be able to find a 'high skill maneuver' even with the nerf. Like the powerslide or something similiar.

Though this can be argued but flying low is usually the worst position to put your self into predator. As someone who loves finding people who do that I will one clip you before you can even run if I catch you at low alt. And the other obvious reason is the ridiculous amount of AA or other weapons that can one shot us. And yes the ability to actually hit your target will always be crucial as a skill based action. But positiong is far more crucial as that gives even the worst shooters the best chance for victory as you can evade the enemy while keeping them within cross airs.

But I love to disprove the who brought more friends time and again when I fly "scary squad". We average about 6 to 10 pilots and completely decimate platoons of enemy air if we find that many. I can't tell you how many air zergs have been laid to rest due to the skill ceiling allowed to us. But if we were forced to stick to basic forward flight model while engaging enemy air zergs player skill will mean much less. Yes we would still rack up quite a few kills but our losses would be increased and the overall fights would be much to bland for my liking.

And I have tested the PST changes quite a bit over these past few days and there won't be any new move coming from that. All that will be different is pilots will be a much easier target to hit when utilizing vertical thrust.

PredatorFour · 2013-08-06, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by snafus

Though this can be argued but flying low is usually the worst position to put your self into predator.

I see your point, though fortunately in this game you can be quite aware of enemies high and low just from looking around the cockpit whilst flying.

pixelshader · 2013-08-06, 07:34 PM

If you're familiar with both 'real' flight sims and ps2 you know exactly what will happen to the air game. If the hover ab thrust is crippled (like on pts now) the game will stay exactly the same, just with crippled hover ab thrust. The best strategy will still be to fight each other in hover mode, just now with a heavy heavy emphasis on aiming rather than dodging, since dodging will be ineffective. Fights will be short, brutal, and probably stupid compared to what we have now.

If you remove hover mode entirely, which is what you would need to force people to fly forwards in a duel, then the game would be simplified to the point of hilarity. You can't get anyone off your tail when they can turn just as well at 20kph as at 200kph and accelerate or decelerate to whatever speed they want almost instantly. You can't turn in any possible way that will get their sights off you, you can't force an overshoot, you can't do anything except hope they are horrifically incompetent and lose you behind terrain or let you make it to your warpgate.

Talking about hover mode disappearing is pointless though as it would only happen as part of a complete esf flight model overhaul, which itself is never going to happen. We're left with the fact that nerfing the hover ab (or 'the reverse') is pretty much just some dumb thing someone at soe decided it might somehow be worth putting on the test server. Maybe to gauge how important it really is by how big of an outcry it causes. Maybe to threaten a massive nerf so they can get away with a smaller one being seen as an excellent change.

KesTro · 2013-08-06, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by snafus

But I love to disprove the who brought more friends time and again when I fly "scary squad". We average about 6 to 10 pilots and completely decimate platoons of enemy air if we find that many.

All I've ever seen you do with scary squad is camp my WG haha, I'll take your word for it and trust those youtube videos of them has actually happened. :P

Either way I'm still of the mind that a change for the air can only be beneficial. The difference between a good pilot and a bad pilot is night and day as to where the difference between a good tanker and a bad tanker is that shell explodes next to you and not on you.

If the gap between them was brought more in line I think everybody would have more fun. It's not as if you're going to lose your edge over people either. In any kind of MMO change is inevitable and communities will adapt. I don't see this being any different.

Note: That tanker reference was more geared towards HE prowlers in 'da day'.

OmegaPREDATOR · 2013-08-07, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

Not the case imo. Flying high is going to get your ass shot down alot quicker than hugging the ground. Also, factor in 'if both pilots see each other at same time' which will happen alot. You still gotta use skill to hit them head on and kill them if they are doing the same. Being evasive and lethal at the same time takes skill.

You don't play near TR base, don't you ? Cause flying low is the faster way to be destroy in 2s by skygards, strykers and vulcans. Fly low near a zerg and "boum". The only viable option in A2A is to stay at least upper than 400m.

Also Scythes have the best maneuvrability, so it will be easiest to them tho try avoid or fronting opponent fast (and ram them taking few damage). TR will (already) have the advantage that no one can go faster, so except with lots of maneuvrability you can't escape. We can speak about reaver now ... bigger hit box and ... nothing. The V-thrust "advantage" they have is not an advantage actually and will not help after. The "supa afterburner speed" is a jock as you can only save 50m against a mossi with speed 3 and additional tanks and he will return in 3s. Without the reverse maneuver what will do Reavers ? (especially now that each weapon can 1 clip the others ESF).

If newbies want to learn pilotage they have VR and PTS (which is near empty every days) and they have a lot of videos who explain every single tips of the game. If they want learn it "without problems or ennemies" they have two possiblities, wich is two more than we add when we learn to fly. Does they need also a "right clich - instagib front ennemy" and "left click - instagib all ennemies" ? They will be happy with the orbital stryke in January.

It's exatly the same when you are in infantery or in tanks, if you go ahead alone with an uncerted class or vehicule without try practicing you will died facing better/more experimented gamers. You can't have a game where guys who play hundred of hours can be easily kill by newbie with only 5min of game (I still think restrincting vehicule utilisation depending of level wad a better idea than what we have).

Just add higher celar for all map (1500 or 2000m) to have A2A gameplay and nerf the lol-pod which is the only reason they made this damn hover nerf.

Emperor Newt · 2013-08-07, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by OmegaPREDATOR

It's exatly the same when you are in infantery or in tanks, if you go ahead alone with an uncerted class or vehicule without try practicing you will died facing better/more experimented gamers. You can't have a game where guys who play hundred of hours can be easily kill by newbie with only 5min of game (I still think restrincting vehicule utilisation depending of level wad a better idea than what we have).

And there you are wrong. A newbie can take a tank and have fun and a few kills with it without certing a lot on it or practicing twenty hours just how to drive. By that the newbie will continue playing and improve over time until he eventually is on par with experienced tank drivers.

Flying ESFs in PS2 is a completely different thing. If you are a newbie and try to fly, especially in an uncerted ESF, you will get destroyed again and again. Many times without even knowing what hit you. And that's why you rarely see BR<40 in ESFs. Newbies simply stop flying because they have a shit experience with it, now that the sky is full with BR100s who rarely do anything else.

And that, in my book, is not "exactly the same".

It is not about having newbies and veterans on the same level. It is about having a fun experience for everybody. And that includes the veterans to be shot down by a lucky newbie once in a while. And not being impenetrable objects that can only be dared to be tackled by players of the exact same skill level.

I also get occasionaly killed by BR<5s on foot or in vehicles. Should I in return open threads to demand a higher skill cap on infantry movement, weapon and vehicle handling? No, because there is enough room to improve and high skilled players will always be better. But they will be killed once in a while by less skilled players. And for everybody on the ground, even vehicle drivers and gunners, this is perfectly fine and acceptable. It's just ESF pilots who complain about anybody daring to suggest something alike.

PredatorFour · 2013-08-07, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by OmegaPREDATOR

You don't play near TR base, don't you ? Cause flying low is the faster way to be destroy in 2s by skygards, strykers and vulcans. Fly low near a zerg and "boum". The only viable option in A2A is to stay at least upper than 400m.

You go anywhere near a zerg and "boom".

pixelshader · 2013-08-07, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Emperor Newt

If you are a newbie and try to fly, especially in an uncerted ESF, you will get destroyed again and again.

This still happens with the changes on pts. Air is intrinsically unforgiving.

Can you think of a multiplayer combined arms game where a new player can do anything in the air without hours of practice on an empty server?

SolLeks · 2013-08-07, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Emperor Newt

And there you are wrong. A newbie can take a tank and have fun and a few kills with it without certing a lot on it or practicing twenty hours just how to drive. By that the newbie will continue playing and improve over time until he eventually is on par with experienced tank drivers.

Flying ESFs in PS2 is a completely different thing. If you are a newbie and try to fly, especially in an uncerted ESF, you will get destroyed again and again. Many times without even knowing what hit you. And that's why you rarely see BR<40 in ESFs. Newbies simply stop flying because they have a shit experience with it, now that the sky is full with BR100s who rarely do anything else.

And that, in my book, is not "exactly the same".

It is not about having newbies and veterans on the same level. It is about having a fun experience for everybody. And that includes the veterans to be shot down by a lucky newbie once in a while. And not being impenetrable objects that can only be dared to be tackled by players of the exact same skill level.

I also get occasionaly killed by BR<5s on foot or in vehicles. Should I in return open threads to demand a higher skill cap on infantry movement, weapon and vehicle handling? No, because there is enough room to improve and high skilled players will always be better. But they will be killed once in a while by less skilled players. And for everybody on the ground, even vehicle drivers and gunners, this is perfectly fine and acceptable. It's just ESF pilots who complain about anybody daring to suggest something alike.

Noobies in most games with air can not survive long, the nature of air fighting and having more than 2 accesses is the cause.

OmegaPREDATOR · 2013-08-08, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

You go anywhere near a zerg and "boom".

Not always, you can fly safely at high altitude just doing A2A (except on Indar where half the map is at 400m from the celar).

Originally Posted by Emperor Newt

...

I don't agree here. I see tones of newbies taking an uncerted tank and it's really easy to destroy them. That's why they play in a zerg and don't go alone fronting other MBT who hunt in solo. And certed tanks stay at range from zerg because ten or more ennemies shoots will kill it fast even full certed.

Why it would be deferent for ESF ? But no newbies fly alone ! Newbies always go alone and fly close to the front or behind it where high BR hunt. If there where 10 or 20 ESF flying together at the same place even a BR100 flying solo will ask himself if it's a good idea to fight them. He will certainly go because it could be funny but he will take several shoots and maybe enough to be destroyed.

The hover nerf will not help newbies. With or without V-thrust they will always be destroy in a few secondes, because trained pilots will pass behind newbies or escape and return easily. A newbie can start to have fun in ESF when he start making reverse maneuver to escape other pilots (so youtube+VR+practicing and it will arrive fast). Without reverse maneuver (which will became harder to do - except for trained pilots)... he will be destroy even more and you will only see >BR80 flying after that.

Hover is use only to lol-pod infantery (so nerf lol-pod not hover) and to do reverse maneuver to avoid others ESF. The nerf will just change dogfight in a "I see you & now you're dead" fight (I can even say it will stay a "fignt") which is not funny.

KesTro · 2013-08-08, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by OmegaPREDATOR

Hover is use only to lol-pod infantery (so nerf lol-pod not hover) and to do reverse maneuver to avoid others ESF. The nerf will just change dogfight in a "I see you & now you're dead" fight (I can even say it will stay a "fignt") which is not funny.

Round after round of nerfing lolpods is what got us to where we are today. "Surely there's nothing wrong with the vehicle and merely the weapons need to be tuned!"

ESF's in their current state are fun to people who have mastered ESF's.

But to quote what someone said earlier and use it against them this is after all a combined arms game. The problem is that ESF's dominate their portion far too much.

Perhaps a simpler explanation would be how I've always looked at vehicle efficiency in Planetside.

Player Skill + Vehicle Survivability + Vehicle Power = Vehicle Efficiency.

The problem isn't one particular part of the ESF it's that with all those things combined the ESF is a far more efficient vehicle than any other in the game.

At least that is the general consensus you will find on the forums and in game.

I love a lot of the top-pilots but I can't help but feel that people with 20+ days of time in their ESF are biased. So returning to the combined arms game i think the nerf is centered around creating a better experience for everybody. Besides we have two very overpowered weapons coming into the game to help ease the pain, cheer up guys.

I'm sure I'll still sing songs of pilots of old and new around the burning carcass of your ESF. :P

*Edit* To add to the formula I suppose Vehicle Cost would fit somewhere in there but cost is pretty much a non-factor even now. Perhaps other players have had different experiences though.