Biolab got butchered (PTS) - Page 5

AThreatToYou · 2013-10-24, 10:29 PM

It is more that a few things are really bad and a few things are ok.

For one, the force field over one of the points I do not support. I would much rather the CP made into a single-entry hut (with a roof) than see this glaring dumbass force field in the middle of a biolab. That thing really looks like it has no purpose.

The walls bordering the entry on the airpads I like. I could narc about aesthetics here like I did before, but at least these things should work.
The anti-camp roof over the teleporter tucked away in a corner I like very much.

Ultimately, with the spawn room, there should be another wall around the spawn room shields to prevent folks shooting out of the spawn. That way you have to risk death in order to defend. In its current incantation, the sides of the spawn room that are of very little tactical or strategic importance are going to be easier to defend than the front, which obviously stands between the spawn and the SCU. If we had any compromise, reverse the position of the walls to cover the sides of the spawn rather than the crucial point between the SCU and them.

Conversely, making the attacker's teleporters harder to camp has them risk death more often in the case of a stalemate, because in order to "attack", they will have to leave their little hut. This I support because if the current owners actually bother to defend, more kills will happen in the area due to the attackers being outside of an indestructible hut. More kills is more certs.

The long-walk and teleport to vehicle bay, of course, absolutely must be fixed.

Rolfski · 2013-10-24, 10:36 PM

Say about reddit what you want but the people who post there at least PLAY the game. How can you expect the devs to take your feedback about this bio lab design seriously when you haven't logged in for months and don't even bother to check these changes?

Anyway, back on topic:

Spawn walk: Looks boring now but might turn out to be not that big of a deal.
Diffuser shield camping: I'm slightly worried about this one as well. On the other hand though, it could result in more smaller battles at the satellites/pads to secure bio lab access points. Therefore, secondary objectives for smaller teams, which we all know are very welcome.
Short cap timer: This can be easily fixed.
Spawn camping inside the dome: I'm not feeling it, so many covered exits. Time will tell.
Too big of an attacker advantage: This is a delicate balance but in the end, I rather have a battle going back and forth for 2 hours (as in the example above) vs a 2hr stand still at a single choke point (current bio labs).

maradine · 2013-10-24, 10:38 PM

I haven't played test yet, so I can't contribute anything concrete other than this general assertion:

If the defenders of a fortification can't hold out against an equally skilled and manned force until one of the prior two preconditions changes, you don't have a fortification. Might as well call it the Smash TV Arena and get a gameshow host to throw money around.

DredVS · 2013-10-25, 12:34 AM

Good thing this is on the PTS and didn't make it to live yet, because the devs need to know this is one of the worst ways to piss off Planetside players, is to nerf base design.

The spawn room changes need to be reverted. Parts of the inside are for the better, such the overshield inbetween the double bridges, but the spawn room changes definitely need to be reverted.

Mordelicius · 2013-10-25, 04:44 AM

That new Biolab Spawn Room area (teleporter room inside the Dome, not the hidden spawn room) is unsalvageable.

Reasons: (using Indar Allatum as model).
- As soon as you exit, the left side is wide open to pretty much any form of infantry attack.
- If you go to the front building, the right side door is wide open to UBGL, RL from the tree roots, LA on the tree, Snipers etc.
- If you manage to survive that, the immediate front outside wall of that same building is a practically a safe zone for the enemy to camp, you are basically surrounded almost 270 degrees all over upon exiting that front building.
- If you exit the spawn and turn left instead, the left side is full exposed, LAs will be free on the C roof, and still get shot from the doorway and C balcony.
- Defenders have no access to high buildings while attackers have very close access, giving them decisive control of the rooftops.
- The front building of the Spawn Room will be camped by C4 wielding LAs.
- The back area will be spam camped all the same by every implements and weapons available.
- The defender teleporter room do not even have an elevator to the 2nd floor of that room.
- LAs coming from the defender spawn will be shot from attacker LAs from the roof of C and tree branches.

solution: The Large Spawn Building has to return. It's the only way to stop spawn camping without creating a new spawn room system from scratch. That's why it was created in the first place. There's no reasonable/available amount of cover that can be subtituted for that building.

In live servers, attacker LAs already swarm the roof of C (and every roof there is), rocks across that, SCU tower, the trees branches and any high ground that can be had, so they can shoot/c4 players coming from spawn. The Developers should at the very least know this.

Players cannot be allowed to stand on that double bridge shield.

Maxes will be lined up while Engineers and Healers will crouch on that shield effectively hidden from view while the Maxes (except NC's) slaughter everything below. That area will be basically a shooting platform for the attacker while the middle and the back are their "safe" healing/repairing zone.

solution: The shield can act as a shield BUT players CANNOT stand on top and will go through if they try to. The only reason why that bridge area is not as utilized on live like that is that resser/repairers are far too exposed to keep a Max spam sustainable.

The boarded up window is on C Allatum must be reopened.

Once C is captured, the doors will be spammed so noone else can come in from the top of the stair platform. That windows allow defenders to shoot gun, rockets, UBGL, grenades against the players (esp. Maxes camping there). It's alway a window for an LA to get it and chuck C4 (as well as the balcony from the other side). Again the developers have to know what the players do with that window in the first place.

I'm not going to expound on the first teleport downstair coming from the new spawn room everyone is agreement by now that it's a disaster waiting to happen. One can literally fit 3 AI/AV turret along the girth of that corridor ( I tested it), that's aside of the vehicles that can pummel that hole.

Not all changes are awful though. Some improvements:

- The shielded areas coming in from the air platforms will afford attackers cover and allow them better entrance to the Biolab.
- The ground and roof covers for attacker spawn room is a welcome addition as well.

Lastly:
1. The Devs really have to play PS2 if they want to better design the game. Judging from the broken game balances (Harassers, Marauder H, ZOE, Vulcan H, AV Mana, SVA, Fracture etc), and now this, it's obvious they don't. The Harassers and ZOE alone we tested as brokenly OP in the PTS even before they were released. A player either see, use or get hit by these weapons. The only logical explanation is the Devs don't see, use or get hit by it because they don't even play their own game.

A less likelier scenarios is the Devs play and see it but don't care or the Devs play and see it but don't think it's OP. Hence, they don't even play their own game.

There's no graphs or charts or VR weapon testing that can substitute to actual first-hand experience of the game, live.
2. Devs can't hurt gameplay in an effort to lower cert gain rate. If they want to lower cert gain, do it directly or limit xp earned through the killxp cooldown mechanic.
3. Devs shouldn't fix what's not broken (the NDZ is another example). Even with community resistance to the NDZ (2:1 voting NO on the Roadmap), it was released. No logical argument against it was even considered or refuted (just flat out ignored).

The Biolab is one of the last iconic locations in PS2. You've already killed our beloved Crown.

If the bases are a row of sandcastles, the best sandcastle will attract the most viewers. Now instead of improving the other sandcastle to the quality of the popular one, they would rather stomp it to the ground so it becomes less attractive.

That's what happened to the Crown and that's what's they are planning on the Biolab.

KesTro · 2013-10-25, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Mordelicius

If the bases are a row of sandcastles, the best sandcastle will attract the most viewers. Now instead of improving the other sandcastle to the quality of the popular one, they would rather stomp it to the ground so it becomes less attractive.

That's what happened to the Crown and that's what's they are planning on the Biolab.

We lost that with the lattice though. If every base was up to snuff with that one base than no one would ever get anywhere.

*edit* And I mean that in terms of defensibility.

Natir · 2013-10-25, 08:41 AM

So my first impression was just that I literally laughed out loud. They force you to spawn, run upstairs to teleport downstairs to then teleport upstairs to a tiny spawn room which can very easily be camped even more. Seems like a waste and whoever thought that was a good idea... well, I am not even going to say what I think about them.

I think what I like the most is that the defenders are literally fucked. They get a giant dildo shoved up their ass if the shield gen is down. Who thought that was a good idea... Seriously.. Any person who actually plays this game would know this is a bad idea. Note I said any person who actually plays. I have a pretty good conspiracy theory that not a lot of devs really play their own game and thus, leads you to ideas such as this.

With this change, it really just seems SOE is trying to cater more towards a casual player who doesn't want to work as much for that victory. Now, I should mention that Planetside 2 is its own special kind of game when it comes to this. The game is all about numbers, not tactics. If you are the attacker, you will need a larger force to push out an enemy and vice versa. If 48 people are defending and you brought 24, you will more than likely loose 90% of the time, assuming all these players are of roughly the same skill.

Biolabs right now are one of those bases that if you do not have a substantially larger number than the defenders, you simply will not take it.

I do agree with just about everything Murda said. A big problem with the facilities, and even other bases, is that there are way too many entry ways and it makes for actually defending points very hard. Think of it like a lockdown max. Really, there are not a lot of places a MAX can lockdown without facing the potential RNF from behind. Just an example.

Overall, nice changes for attackers while hurting defenders.

Blynd · 2013-10-25, 11:15 AM

Disclaimer :- this could upset people but take a breath and look at the post logically

OK then.

I think if they implimented it in 1 bio lab per cont it would be fine. As we would have something different to play on every so often so I don't see it as wholey a bad idea.

That's it out the way now to look at it if it were to replace all biolabs then its very poor design and just to point out that no one in the history of the world would make a militery/civilian instilations that are so hard to defend.

That was always the fun of ps1 it took tactics generally a lot of people and a bit of a never say die attitude. Defence could be accomplished by those who were outnumbered if they were organised but in ps2 nothing is defensable but the current biolab and these changes just make it on a par with the cap in 3 minutes crap bases not a facility.

Natir · 2013-10-25, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Blynd

I think if they implimented it in 1 bio lab per cont it would be fine. As we would have something different to play on every so often so I don't see it as wholey a bad idea.

Yeah... no. That is not really a good idea, just going to be blunt. It gimps one empire per warpgate location and not the other two. Facilities are the main bases that are supposed (or should) keep an enemy at bay from taking all your territory and having bases designed to be centered around either the attacker or the defender is not just a good idea.

The rest of the changes in the biolab seem pretty good. The bad things are just the spawn rooms, the new spawn room and the travel time it takes to get into a fight.

I will say again, whoever made that change with the spawn room really doesn't play the game and it is very clear. That person should also not be working on Planetside 2 seeing as how that idea is about the worst I have seen since I started playing day one of tech test. Not only do they not even play the game they are supposed to be designing, they seem to have terrible ideas. Also, if it was the lead level designer who made that change, that is even worse. I just cannot fathom how something like this would even make it into anything more than an idea that never gets put onto paper.

"I got it guys, lets have to spawn into a biolab and close all the doors and make it so you cannot get out. We will put only one way in and out though. You will have to go up the first set of stairs and then the second. Then you will have to turn and go to the back of the room to a teleporter that will take you to the vehicle bay. Then you get to make your way to the other side to teleport back to the spawn room. We love loading screens. Only then will we take you into a small spawn room where we will make it impossible for you to advance out if you are overwhelmed by the enemy. Oh yeah, if the shield generator is down, that means the base should be taken very quickly after that. We really do not like infantry only fights and we strive ourselves on making sure these types of things never happen and if they do, we want them to end quickly."

Seriously though, who comes up with that kind of an idea and thinks it is even good enough to go on a test server. That is something that should never even make it to that level. It isn't even one of those "wouldn't it be cool" ideas. It is just something that doesn't make any sense.

PredatorFour · 2013-10-25, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Natir

Yeah... no. That is not really a good idea, just going to be blunt. It gimps one empire per warpgate location and not the other two.

You gotta remember this will all change when 'true planetside' comes in (global warfare). We wont be stuck with 3 empires on one cont all the time like we are now or that's how the theory goes

I think it would be nice to have varying designs of the same base (within reason) for example, so no amp station is the same as the other.

I do agree with everything you said though and i too believe the devs don't play this game and have never played the original game.

Wargrim · 2013-10-25, 01:22 PM

Picture time!

Disclaimer: I know these are not neccessarily good camp spots, in fact they are not. I just want to illustrate that players WILL find and use the good spots.

Bobby Shaftoe · 2013-10-26, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

You gotta remember this will all change when 'true planetside' comes in

I'll be pleasantly surprised if there isn't another set of server mergers before the end of the year leaving 2 servers each for US/EU.

Peak pops barely warrant 2.5 servers, they've got 8. (before any additional population cap for new conts, of course they might try the ol' reduce pop lock numbers like they did in PS1 to promote secondary fights)

There's not going to be many people left (who want what 'true planetside' is) to actually play if/when it appears, will they even bother implementing it if the current state of the game does well on PS4 release? It'll just be the remaining PC gamers wanting more complexity anyway. Why waste all that time/development/money when they consistently do it wrong and we all just whine about it?

I think they might just put the pc version in maintenance mode and focus on developing the console side and just pump out the camo/bling/op-weapons for both platforms.

Spoof · 2013-10-26, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Spawn walk: Looks boring now but might turn out to be not that big of a deal.

That spawn walk and the need for arrows are icons of flawed design. Don't dismiss it.

Take a good, long look at what it is, what it does and how it fits into the game. Experience it, analyse it, critique it. Because if it comes to live you'll get the opportunity to walk it over and over and over and over and over and over...

It gives you no options.
It forces you down a linear route.
It forces you to the vehicle bay, even if you don't need a vehicle.
It forces you into a blind choke point if the vehicle bay is compromised.
It patronises you with "follow this, stupid" arrows.
It makes no functional sense in a purpose-built base with a role to play in the world of Auraxis.

In other words, whoever designed it had absolutely no connection with this game at all. They certainly do not play it.

Every team member is supposedly dedicated to optimisation, and yet somebody found the time to ruin the bio lab. Think about that too. It's like there's a clause in everyone's contract at SOE that somebody must leave their watch inside the patient after every operation.

"Nurse! The chainsaw..."

capiqu · 2013-10-26, 10:35 AM

If fairer fights at Bio labs is what we are looking for maybe they should have two spawn rooms one on each side right off the landing pads. The attacking empire would be able to hack 1 spawn room. This would allow both empires to engage from an equal distance however the BIo Lab benefit would give an advantage to the defending team.
As far as spawn room camping. It is too easy to spawn camp a small rectangular room. As well as the current force field exits we currently have, give each spawn room 3 teleporters to allow players to exit at various points throughout the Bio Lab . You have many buildings in the Bio Labs that could be used for this. Giving the defenders the ability to teleport to the vehicle bay area, the SCU room and the generator room will force the attackers to cover those areas instead of camping the Spawn room.

NewSith · 2013-10-26, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by capiqu

As well as the current force field exits we currently have, give each spawn room 3 teleporters to allow players to exit at various points throughout the Bio Lab.

Not good either. Teleporters are a REALLY bad idea for innate level designs. Router-like vehicles? Maybe. But teleporters themselves are just too flawed because they are a camping central. If there's no defense around them, than then exits are getting camped, if there is defensive designs around the exists, than it's vice versa: people camp from inside these designs, much akin to what we have now.