The nerf the Lasher actually warrants

[Seer]

I collected actual data on this and this is what I found. I will assume for the sake of simplicity that TTKs and all other values except ammunition are balanced. I'll also ignore uncertainty and uncertainty propogation.

For the Lasher to expend its magazine, which is half of its box:
Test 1. 6.34 Seconds
T2: 6.34 Seconds
T3: 6.43 Seconds
T4: 6.31 Seconds
T5: 6.30 Seconds
Average: 6.36 Seconds

Per ammo box damage potential is 2*6.36, 12.7 seconds of fire.

For the Jackhammer to expend its magazine, which is its entire ammo box
7.87 S
8.04 S
7.70 S
8.00 S
7.86 S
Average: 7.89

Per box damage potential is 1*7.89, 7.89 seconds of fire.

MCG to expend its magazine, which is two ammo boxes
11.57 S
11.51 S
11.74 S
11.63 S
11.69 S
Average: 11.62 S

Per box damage potential is 1/2*11.62 seconds, or 5.8 seconds of fire.

So in this light--there are a lot of other factors, like the VS inability to scrounge up the rarer energy ammo and the TR ability to finely govern their ROF--Krisanth's proposal sounds reasonable. However, the Jackhammer's ammunition would have to be further decreased to 13 to bring it in line with the others.

Also to get the full damage potential of a box of ammo the vs have to reload once. The nc don't have to reload at all, and the TR only have to reload once for every two. That's a strength you might be neglecting.

[SilverLord]

You sound like a friend of mine. Stantonhog, he knows everything down to the digits just like you Seer. So basically, the MCG is the worst on ammo?

[Seer]

That's always been the case--though an MCG user has the easiest time looting ammo. I'm not sure that balances it out, but there you go. I've seen lasher teams in gen rooms run out of ammo very quickly.

I didn't include TTK because it is almost impossible to measure correctly, but I imagine if there were some way, I guess it would be fairest to divide damage potential by TTK.

[JuSTCHiLLiN]

Originally Posted by Seer

So in this light--there are a lot of other factors, like the VS inability to scrounge up the rarer energy ammo and the TR ability to finely govern their ROF--Krisanth's proposal sounds reasonable. However, the Jackhammer's ammunition would have to be further decreased to 13 to bring it in line with the others.

I don't think the "scrounge" factor plays a major role in the weapons effectiveness. Yes, I'll concede that energy ammo isn't easy to come by off of enemy soldiers but, unless you're soloing it, there should be one or two VS lying around and they do spawn with a box.

Shotgun ammo is fairly rare on non NC players as well, though not as rare as energy due to the sweeper users. On the rare occasion I'm by myself in enemy terrority, using HA, and run out of ammo, I'll just switch to the next best weapon I can find.

[Rbstr]

Not a bad idea, but a but fix for the lash thogh things/behind is all it realy needs

[Krinsath]

I agree that the bug fixes will go a long way to toning the lasher down a bit (especially for the NC JH users). However, I'm still left with the feeling that the VS have a tremendous ammo advantage with their HA. They have twice the reloads of the NC and four times the reloads of the TR (TR is a hazier comparison, I know).

Just saying if the reason the shotguns were toned down was battlefield lifetime, then why is the Lasher immune to that? It's shots are roughly comparable (loss in damage made up for by increase in range and lash effects) to the shotgun, yet the VS get half again the firing time out of it?

The NC are supposed to hit hard, so the most damage per box should go to them. As it stands, it doesn't. If they can fire the longest out of the box, that's a fair trade off as the pellet spread past 8-10m makes it rather ineffective (which is a liability the Lasher does NOT suffer from). It seems on the surface that it would bring a much closer semblance of balance across the HA weapons. Surface ideas aren't always true which is why I wanted our great minds here to review it.

The Lasher is not the greatest weapon in the game, but I wonder how much VS effectiveness is boosted by not having to worry about ammo, maybe I'm wrong and there's no benefit at all. Any other VSers out there with an opinion?

[Seer]

The ability to scrounge ammo is actually pretty important when you're relying on advanced medics to keep you in the game, like when you're holding a backwater techplant gen.

Not a deal breaker, though. You're wrong if you think we don't have to worry about ammo. The lasher, even though it fires the longest, is still an ammo intensive spam weapon. The JH and Jack focus on actually killing people, while the Lasher has a great suppression role.

Personally I'd rather accept a nerf to its offensive capabilities--hell, I loved Lasher V1.0--but I don't want to run out of ammo on a dime.

[DHoff]

Originally Posted by SilverLord

I def agree that the 9MM boxes need a tiny buff for the MCG because whn I'm in a zerg, i prolly get about a 60/40 hit miss ratio and it just runs my ammo dry very quick. The better I get with the MCG, the lower my ammo gets everytime I go to battle.

If you can hit 50/50 total with lasher then you are a god, nerfing the lasher ammo boxes would ruin it because you simply miss too much. The mcg hardly ever misses when bursting or up close, the jh almost never misses, but the lasher can be dodged and the lash dmg isn't that great alone (it takes 22 lashes to kill a rexo).

[Kayith]

(it takes 22 lashes to kill a rexo)

What rock have you been living under? It barely takes five head-on shots to kill a REXO now with the dancing disco-death orbs.

At least it seems that way with all the LAG it creates. Maybe seven or so.

[Krinsath]

He said "Lashes" which is "near miss"...not "head on hits".

Anyway, the problem is that in comparison to the TR and NC, the VS *do* have an ammo advantage. Yes, the Lasher can be used as a suppression weapon quite well. A strong argument can be made for the MCG as a suppression weapon as well (though the Lasher is obviously better as you don't need to hit to do damage...but the fact remains that three good MCGs will hold a hallway as well as three good Lashers until the ammo runs out). The JH focuses on killing, yes, but that's what the NC do.

The problem is that with 4 boxes, I get 200 rounds as a VS. The Terran also gets 200 rounds, and the NC gets 64. That's 8 reloads, 2 reloads and 4 reloads respectively. Going off of earlier ammo consumption charts, that translates to (in terms of firing time):

VS - 50.88 seconds
TR - 23.24 seconds
NC - 31.56 seconds

THAT is the problem. The VS enjoy a quite hefty superiority on inventory. Heck a Terran can double the inventory space devoted to ammo and STILL have the lesser firing times (not that it's truly a measure of damage inflicted, but of ammo life).

Sure, you don't have readily replenished ammo supplies. You also don't have to carry AP/AI rounds (the Lasher is not too shabby as an Anti-MAX weapon) and switch, so those two even out.

The inventory problem goes back to making the VS soldier more effective in the field simply because he can carry more gear than his opponents, which is the *exact* reason that the Devs decided to cut back on the shotgun ammo because the NC were dominating based on the amount of extra gear that could be carried. I don't want the Lasher to get nerfed, because it is fun...but at the same time fair is fair. If that's why the shotgun ammo was cut back, then the same logic must be applied now.

Cutting back on the energy boxes isn't such a good idea though, because as I said, other weapons that are not so powerful rely on that same ammuntion, and neither of them can really survive taking a hit of that nature. Doubling the clip size and ammo consumption of the Lasher leaves the characteristics exactly the same, but balances out the inventory inequity.

If you're concerned about this cutting down on your lifeline in a SpecOps mission, there are three possible alternatives:

1) Pay attention to how you're firing and don't spam for spamming's sake. (Again, why should the VS be different?)

2) Bring an AMS along

3) If you run out of ammo, loot some weapons off of the people you've been killing...because if you're out of ammo, chances are someone's died. If you're in a backwater, the backpacks aren't disappearing quickly. If they are disappearing quickly, it's because there's heavy fighting and you should really have a spawn nearby in that case.

It won't be that huge of a hit to the Lasher, but it will bring it back in line with the other empires. I also wouldn't be opposed to a "lash-only" fire mode that still only used one shot, but only did lash damage (similar to the lash grenades on the maelstrom). I would say that it'd need a lower RoF at that point with an increased clip size for that mode only.

EDIT: Dyslexia found for cure, switched up the NC and TR numbers, they're right now.

[SilverLord]

I am still trying to think of what we could do for the ammo problem witht eh MCG.

It's got to be balanced and yet stille effective. Maybe we could change the ammo type to like 10mm and it be different?

P.S. JuSTCHiLLiN...you member me and my guys at Pwyll last night? You were in that CC and we kicked ya out then you kicked us out. Then you guys just left for no apparant reason.

[Krinsath]

Make it 7.62mm Then put in 100 per box, lower the damage per shot by 1 point (for the realism buffs out there).

The MCG as a weapon is quite effective except for it's ammo consumption. Boosting that would be a buff to the MCG that would bring it into a nice little setup on terms of firing that *might* even out HA at such a point that the VS advantage is neutralized as the TR could fire for 46.48 seconds then. that'd put them between the VS and the NC, and the NC are used to having short ammo life (look at the Gauss).

Possible fix, but I think you're just making everyone equally self-sufficient, which in my mind is contrary to the teamwork oriented nature of PS. I could be wrong though, perhaps a MCG buff instead of a Lasher nerf.

[Fenrys]

With the JH, you don't pull the trigger until you know you will hit, and the MCG just a little less so. However, slow-moving lasher orbs need to be fired in overkill quantities to compensate for their lack of speed.

[SilverLord]

Originally Posted by Fenrys

However, slow-moving lasher orbs need to be fired in overkill quantities to compensate for their lack of speed.

Thats why they lash and do so much damage when they hit.

[noxious]

Originally Posted by SilverLord

Thats why they lash and do so much damage when they hit.

But what he's saying is that every kill you expend 3 or 4 rounds more than you need to because of the orb travel time you aren't sure which orb will kill. After a lot of practice you can start to tell, but I still make mistakes (sometimes I stop shooting when the target needed one more orb and I end up dying )

Now for my general input on the conversation, I think the MCG and JH need more ammo rather thant he Lasher having less. In my opinion, if you have the talent to expend 150 Lasher rounds (I carry three boxes in most agile setups), you should be rewarded by being able to carry that many (or more for rexo users or those who don't pack deci's), not punished by running out of ammo.