simple perspective on TR balance

[Ducimus]

Ya i know, the dreaded B word.

I think SOE has balancing everything all wrong. They'll never get it balanced.

Its not about individual weapons compared to each other in relative power persay, but as to their attributes and physics.

Riddle me this, why does it take: ( oh and yes im TR)


15 TR players vs 10 NC players to field 5 tanks? Or even buggies?

15 TR players vs 9 NC playes to field 3 empire delivers?

Thats just the more pronounced examples. But the overall theme with SOE's design of the TR has always been:

More is better

This philosphy has extended into EVERYTHING in the TR inventory in some way, shape or form. From number of gunners, to number of rounds spewed per minute.

In a game where number of players you have means alot, and an arguably laggy enviorment where the shots you land have to count, I think this philosophy is fundamentally flawed.

[MrCovertMan]

Yeah every empires philosophy is flawed somehow
TR like you stated
they got the NC damage per shot down but they didn't take into account that the number of rounds being shot by a vast number of people might offset any "slower refire rate" or "shorter range"
the vs were supposed to be versatile but that meant having a weapon universally used against both armor and infantry *cough*lasher 2.0*cough* which ends up as "unbalanced" when you only need to field one weapon to counter any situation you may encounter

[Nalar]

Of course with good gunners, those extra people stacked into a prowler or the raider will chew through a vanguard or thunderer which is the point.

Its not about individual weapons compared to each other in relative power persay, but as to their attributes and physics.

Exactly the point, its not about balancing each weapon to each other. Obviously EAch empire has its advantage in different places which is the whole point. If they wanted to make each empires weapons balance each other, they would just give them the same weapon.

[Rbstr]

i don't see and balence problems with this game except for MA but that hardly matters for some people.

With the way the game goes, atleast on markov, any empire can win the day, it jsut needs to have a good star and some luck and it gains momentum and takes it. Ballence is not just weapon VS weapon of the same cert/place on teh other team, its as a whole as well, and i think it has been doen very well.

Part of it is the way things seem to go, monitoring the kill ratio, you do well and get a positive kill scoe but then you get spwancamped and loss it all while you try to find a better place to go, it seems to make alot of peopl feel they are in a constant state of loosing even if they realy aren't

[HawkEye]

wow another thread stating how overpowered The NC is. people just need to shut up and play.

[Ducimus]

Well, let me put it another way....

With 15 NC or VS you can field 7 buggies or tanks with one odd man out. TR can field 5 with the same amount of players. For the TR to match that 7, it would require 21 players vs 15.

So sony means to tell me, it takes 21 terrans to match the firepower of 15 NC? Whats wrong with this picture?

Lets take deli's. NC require, what, 3 per thunderer? 1 driver 2 gunenrs.
With 15 players, the NC can field 5 thunderes, right?
Whats the TR varaint take? 4 gunners 1 driver? That means 3 vehicles the TR can put out. In order for the TR to match that firepower requires 25 terrans verses the NC's 15.

Once again, what is wrong with this picture?

wow another thread stating how overpowered The NC is. people just need to shut up and play.

The point i'm making here flew so far over this guys head, i think it was at mach 3 at 80,000 feet. Look, ive played PS off and on for a long time. I know there's die hard NC fanboy's who've never geniunly played anything else, so i dont expect you to understand anyone else's views through your own rose tint'ed glasses.

I've learned along time ago that people who can look at anything objectivly without bias in this community (espeicaly on the offiical message boards) is rare.

I'm not saying anyone's overpowered (where did i say "Nerf the (Noobhammer/splattermax/phoneix, etc etc etc etc, hmmm? where? ), im saying sony's going about this balancing act all wrong, and so long as they persist in the way they are going about it, this game will always be out of skew.

EDIT:
and i havent even touched on weapon physics yet, this is just general empire attributes.

[I Hate Pants]

The problem with the TR are the players. We're strong in numbers. Hence the Raider, marauder, prowlers needing the most crew to operate. Are true strenghts is when we can actually fill up a vehicle.

But no, TR players would rather go gung-ho in a reaver or lightening or go run off with thier MCGs. And we have the nerve to complain of unbalanced gameplay.

[KIAsan]

Ducimus,

This argument has been around for a while. It resurfaced again when the raider was in development/test. Yup it suxs and shouldn't be this way. Nope, they won't change it. At this point, I am firmly against any new "empire specific" vehicles EVER being fielded again. Simply put, TR just doesn't have the manpower to effectively crew these vehicles. It is far better for TR to just stick to common pool assets and hope for the best.

[WolfA4]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Well, let me put it another way....

With 15 NC or VS you can field 7 buggies or tanks with one odd man out. TR can field 5 with the same amount of players. For the TR to match that 7, it would require 21 players vs 15.

So sony means to tell me, it takes 21 terrans to match the firepower of 15 NC? Whats wrong with this picture?

Lets take deli's. NC require, what, 3 per thunderer? 1 driver 2 gunenrs.
With 15 players, the NC can field 5 thunderes, right?
Whats the TR varaint take? 4 gunners 1 driver? That means 3 vehicles the TR can put out. In order for the TR to match that firepower requires 25 terrans verses the NC's 15.

Once again, what is wrong with this picture?



The point i'm making here flew so far over this guys head, i think it was at mach 3 at 80,000 feet. Look, ive played PS off and on for a long time. I know there's die hard NC fanboy's who've never geniunly played anything else, so i dont expect you to understand anyone else's views through your own rose tint'ed glasses.

I've learned along time ago that people who can look at anything objectivly without bias in this community (espeicaly on the offiical message boards) is rare.

I'm not saying anyone's overpowered (where did i say "Nerf the (Noobhammer/splattermax/phoneix, etc etc etc etc, hmmm? where? ), im saying sony's going about this balancing act all wrong, and so long as they persist in the way they are going about it, this game will always be out of skew.

EDIT:
and i havent even touched on weapon physics yet, this is just general empire attributes.

yup vehicle wise the TR get less vehicles, but you get more guns for the same amount of people either way. with 15 people you get 12 guns the NC get 10 guns with 15 people worth of deli's. so even though you get less vehicles you wind up with a greater number of guns capable of doing damage. now i dont have numbers to prove this, but im going to say theoretically 12 raider guns all firing on one target is going to kill that target quick, just like 10 thunderer guns will.

[7ruth]

I think that we have delved to far into statistics and never started with a simple concept of balance. Balance is best represented on a "Teter'Toter".

I'm going to try to represent TR to NC balance(relative to what I suspect).

We'll represent uniformity as
1-^-1 or 2=2 (damage output)
Equal Damage/Power(the value/weight), and Equal ROF(The distance from the center), Together they equate to the Damage output. The Higher the value, the higher the damage per shot. The farther from the center, the more shots in a second.

Lets think of some simple values for the Thunderer, and Raider.
-=Per gunner=-
Thunderer-
*ROF 1 (-)
*Power 9

Raider-
*ROF 4 (----)
*Power 1

***Balance Beam***
9-^----1 so 10=5 (apparently)
This gives us a 2 to 1 rating Damage Output for Gunner to gunner.

-=Vehicle to Vehicle=-
Thunderer 2 gunners-
*ROF 2 (--)
*power 18

Raider 4 gunners-
*ROF 16 (--16--)
*power 4

***Balance Beam***
18--^--(16)--4 so 20=20
Our simple math gives us 1 to 1 rating for total vehicle Damage Output.

So technically with these values the balance between the vehicles is good, in a situation where they go against each other. Full armor, start firing at the same time with all gunners, and every shot hits=).

The real issue here is that the TR need to devote 5 men for a vehicle per every 3 NC men for a vehicle to meet their firepower. So now we take our ratios and apply them to the plaoon/squad settings.

*Squad*
NC- Fielding 3 Thunderers (full squad)
*ROF 6 (------)
*Power 54 (18x3)
an odd man out for a ten man squad

TR- Fielding 2 Raiders (full squad)
*ROF 34 (--34--)
*Power 8 (4x2)
Every man needed

***Balance Beam***
54------^--34--8 so 60=40
Our math now gives us a rating, for the coherent squads, of 3 (NC) to 2 (TR).

Ok well im a little tired so for a platoon...

NC can field 10 Thunderers
TR can field 6 Raiders

So 180 to 120 for our damage output ratio.

To sum it up... The Raider requires 5 men to be as effective as a 3 man Thunderer crew. A platoon of TR all maning raiders can only be 66% as effective as A platoon of NC Maning Thunderers. Of course I guessed at the values i for the vehicles, so I could be totally off with my #s. Yet the general idea should still hold true, and now im going to go to bed.

[SandTrout]

the raider is an exelent weapon. Why? Because you have 5 gunns that can all be pointed at the same thing. The cooridnation the raider allows makes it one of the most powerful weapons you can field. It is one of the few vehicles that can go against an empire tank and come out on top.

The marauder is gimped, I'll give you that, but that's because it's weapons blow, not necisaraly that it requires 3 people.

The prowler does not even require a 3rd person to use effectively. the 100mms can proform some AA if the machine gun is unmanned, and most tanks concentrate on ground targets regardless. the machine gun basicly adds a harrasser's firepower without wasteing someone else on the driver's seat.

As for the viehicles you can field:
10 TR fielding 5 tanks can take on 10 NC fielding 5 tanks. the 5 machine gunners also let you take on those pesky reavers and mosquitoes flying about.

10 TR fielding 2 raiders can take on 9 NC fielding 3 thunders and their reaver/mossie buddy, rather easaly at that.

[Incompetent]

10 TR fielding 2 raiders can take on 9 NC fielding 3 thunders and their reaver/mossie buddy, rather easaly at that.

Put the crack pipe down, the Thunderer's have a whole nother hull's worth of HP, and six of those Thunderer cannons battering away at something will kill it alot faster then eight 15mm stubguns. I'd break down and find the extra man to field a pair of Thunderer's (or even stock Dels) rather then one Raider in just about any given situation.

If anything, the use of the Raider is detrimental to the empire as a whole as it sucks up good troops that would be better deployed in damn near any other fashion. I know several time today if the morons in the Raiders would have just dismounted and broken out there cyclers we would have been MUCH better off.

[Ducimus]

Honestly, i think from an individuals perspective this is all going to come down to what you experience ingame.

To me, numbers on paper are just that, numbers on paper. Thats part of the problem with sony. I think they're relying too much on whatever raw data they collect and less on actually playing the game, or acutal ingame results.

Frankly i love planetside, but it's far too frustrating most of the time. Fighting against, and losing to certain empires, 90% of the time, is just not fun. I've acutally cancled this game about a month ago. What got me to post, was the 10 day trail and some of my old outfit mates coming back to try it out. Most of whom, all quit the game too, over frustration of fighting against, and losing to an empire 90% of the time.

So im trying to be objective here, cause after awhile, you start to ask yourself why. Yes theres alot of problems with the players within the empire itself, but it goes much farther than that. Sony just refuses to acknowledge it. And i think the Raider is the pinnacle of their "eyes wide shut" game design. It should not take 4 cannons to be compedative with 2. Now im not bitching about the raider itself, im bitching about sony's mentalty for the TR. Their concept, for the TR, is a broken one.

Now, i know many will think im full of shit, and thats fine. But sony IS losing players because of their inablity to see the forest for the trees. Arguably, entire outfits- but thats just a guess from other's that ive seen quit as well.

Oh well, i had my say, not that it will accomplish anything.

Have fun, im outta here.

[BadAsh]

The TR can be absolutely devastating if they get their act together and quit whining. On Markov this last weekend the TR totally dominated both the VS and NC day and night and had the medium population level.

They organized better and crushed everything in their path. At two separate instances the world almost went completely RED. The NC with 40% of the world population were pushed back to just 3 bases at one point while the TR were simultaneously smashing both the NC and VS.

In the midst of all the whining you never hear any touting the TR�s strengths. So let me enlighten you some. After the death of surge, the quad shot �fix�, and the shot gun ammo nerf of nearly 50% capacity per ammo box the JH is no longer the �King� of HA.

That title goes to the MCG + Personal Shield combo. Outside the MCG will spank the JH or Lasher with ease. And in any tower fight an alert TR will be a VERY tough opponent. Before you can get to optimum JH range you will be shredded.

Every time I duel there are always players on both the NC and VS sides that are using looted MCG�s now. Where the old standard was the Jack + Surge. The Jack is useless at any range but point blank. Some of the better NC players are forgoing Rexo armor and using Agile to have a chance to close the distance to their target. So please stop crying about the MCG.

Then there is REDX�s Prowler tank formation guide where you use formations of Prowlers with main gunners and drivers only along with Skyguards. This dominates the battlefield completely and only the NC can field enough armor to stop this TR armor column. The VS have no hope, but can flee across water� LOL. So please stop the crying about your armor. It�s been proven effective.

The Marauder is just flat out wicked as is a fully crewed Raider. The Raider�s strength that is overlooked here is that it is hands down the BEST against enemy air power. The NC and VS equivalents can�t hit anything but hovering enemy aircraft (i.e. n00b pilots). And there is the obvious strengths/advantage of having every person in the Raider with a position to drive OR gun. No empty passenger only seats. This tends to make Raiders completely full and crewed so that when they pull up to an enemy base or tower they end up delivering more troops. Regular Delivers and NC/VS variants tend to have empty seats. If one remembers that the Deliverer and it�s variants are TROOP TRANSPORTS then this makes the Raider the most effective at that. Add it�s anti-air capability and you have the best 5 man transport in the game.

Ever Fly against the TR? With Burster MAXes insta-gibbing aircraft without the tell tale lock on warning the NC and VS AA MAXes give, the Raider AA capability, and every TR grunt equipped with a Striker (hands down the best AA AV in the game) the TR are highly formidable opponents and CAN GAIN TOTAL AIR SUPERIORITY if they focus their efforts. No other empire can be so effective at AA and still be diversified.

Guess what happens to the empire that can field Reavers, Mosquitoes, and Liberators while denying the enemy the same? Multi-continental domination on several simultaneous fronts is what happens.

So the next TR whine slogan will be what? �We win all the time, it�s no challenge� sniffle.. the other empires have challenges so the game is still fun for them!�

[Rbstr]

See Badash i htin kthe problems stems from the fact that the servers are different, I have the exact POV as you do, and many many other morkovians, and that is that the game is basicaly ballenced, in the past week i've Seen VS and TR and NC all dominate at some point in time