Rethinking the Drivers and Planetside Vehicles as a whole

[Sirisian]

I've always preferred vehicles where the driver and gunners work together without leaving the driver out of the action. This is going to sound controversial, especially for veterans, but the change that I'd make to enable that is to give the main weapons of a vehicle to the driver and let the gunner offset the weaknesses of the main weapons with secondary weapons. (Breathe. This is similar in concept to the BFR). I assure you I've included changes that make this balanced.

So how I see this changing things depends on the vehicles. Some would stay like they are while others would see a different gameplay.

Starting with two single person planes that many view as "solo but can work with a team such as a squad". That is they don't have mandatory teamwork.

Mosquito
Focus on anti-aircraft/anti-infantry. The idea would be to keep them agile and suited for taking out other aircraft while also allowing them to kill infantry in quick attacks. (As I said in another thread I'm not a fan of hovering and I prefer A-10 Warthog type strikes with high fire-rates).

Reaver
Focus on anti-vehicle/anti-infantry (depending on the rockets) ranged sneak attacks. Like normal they'd be good at damaging targets and avoiding AA.

Liberator
The liberator in Planetside is a 3 person vehicle with a lot of down-time especially for the tail-gunner. I foresee a whole new gameplay model for it.

The bombs would be weaker making the driver inline with the other aircraft and focus on tactical strikes. The physics for the bombs would be changed such that they behave like real bombs keeping the velocity of the plane that releases them. That is you can fly at a target then release a bomb and pull up and the bomb would be thrown into the target. (This would alow allow you to throw a bomb through a door, but that's less likely). Or if you start out high in the clouds then drop straight down on a target and release bombs one after another they'd hit in the same spot. The main idea would be giving the driver more control over the skill of using a bomber. The driver would lose their front gun and become a more specialized aircraft. When you see a bomber you know what it's after basically.

There would be one gunner for it. The tailgunner would have anti-vehicle cannons or anti-air rounds. With the increased maneuverability (6 degrees of freedom flight) the tail gunner would actually make sense in the new game. It could be used to defend the plane or to aim at targets with AV rounds if the plane was low bombing. (A single bomb wouldn't kill a vehicle basically, thus why dive bombing to focus multiple bombs would be used if a person wanted to do more damage).

Tanks (Prowler/Vanguard/Magrider)
With this change tanks would function more as a slow firing heavy hitting vehicle. That is when you saw one you know they can only attack one piece of armor at a time but they can do this very well. For instance, if you saw a vanguard fire there would be a loud blast and smoke particles emitted from the muzzle and the vehicle would rock backwards and the barrel would recoil into the tank then slowly reset itself. The round would travel through the air in a long arc then explode when it hit something. You'd immediately know that whatever it hit probably just sustained a lot of damage.

However, because of this slow firing heavy hitting you'd know pretty well that they were vulnerable to infantry and air attacks. This means that a secondary gunner would be very beneficial. The top of a tank would have either anti-infantry or anti-aircraft weapons.

However to keep things simple they'd be generally the same.

Prowler: AI = Long Range Dual Rockets, AA = Air-Burst Flak Rounds

Vanguard: AI = Long Range Dual Cluster Rockets, AA = Shotgun Flak Rounds

Magrider: AI = Long Range Dual Plasma Rockets, AA = Energy Flak Rounds

The AI would be used to attack with nearly the same distance as the main cannon and the AA would be used to tell aircraft to stay out of range.

The whole idea here is to make both the driver and gunner important roles and keep both interesting in the battle with ideally no downtime. While this seems like it makes the gunner's roll unimportant, without one a person using a tank would set themselves up to be ambushed by infantry and air attacking the weak components of the vehicle since the reload time would make leave it defenseless.

Also I really didn't like the old gameplay of the tanks; shooting the main cannon while driving 50 through a forest. Ideally the tank would be doing one of two things. Either lining up a shot and shooting something or moving into position. Their role would be focused more on open terrain combat where both the driver and gunner are bombarding the enemy. The gunner would be much more able to shoot while driving whereas the main gun would difficult to aim exactly while moving.

Skyguard
Possibly one of the most specific vehicles in the game with the strongest AA in the game. It was fun to gun for, but driving them them wasn't nearly as rewarding. It had a huge role overlap with the AA max which was probably the main problem. Not sure if this was anyone's favorite vehicle, but since the driver never got any kills I've always wanted it to be a deployed dual AA turret.

That is it wouldn't have a secondary gunner. It's teamwork would be more of a big-picture stationary air-turret for taking out fast moving planes from afar. Rather than flak though I've always wanted a super high rate-of fire anti-aircraft gun. That would basically totally re-invent the skyguard. (The original did have a machine-gun though).

Did anyone enjoy driving this vehicle?

Empire-Specific buggies
The way I imagine making them more interesting is giving the driver a forward facing chaingun and letting the gunner still deal with the main gun. That is the marauder would still promote a fast agile attack platform and the driver could stay occupied if it was chasing something. (This is similar to the old magrider's front gun which wasn't that great as a front gun).

Ground Transport
In the 8 years the games been out I've only used them once or twice. I'm sure some people found them fun, but they weren't as rewarding as any of the other vehicles. Pulling a galaxy for my squad was usually my first choice. If there was terrain or caves in the new game where these could be used then maybe I'd change my mind. Not sure how those will even work if they're included in the new game since it sounds like they buffed the role of the galaxy even more.

Conclusion
Now a few people are probably going to think to themselves "what if 50 people try to use these vehicles solo?" Ideally they'd be designed with a weakness like the tank such that they'd leave themselves open to a wide range of attacks.

Also since I was in IRC the comment of "This just promotes solo play" came up and I agree to a point. The idea is to make all the vehicles rewarding to use even as a driver. Some people found driving extremely rewarding getting their gunner into the perfect positions to fire. I personally didn't enjoy it as much as the developers probably intended.

What do you guys think about these ideas? (I know they're going to be compared to other games, but describe what you don't like about how it was handled at least in those games with how I presented the driver/gunner relationship). Also if you enjoyed driving say that. I'm in the minority on that I'm almost 100% sure.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Also since I was in IRC the comment of "This just promotes solo play" came up and I agree to a point. The idea is to make all the vehicles rewarding to use even as a driver. Some people found driving extremely rewarding getting their gunner into the perfect positions to fire. I personally didn't enjoy it as much as the developers probably intended.

While I am a fan of the idea of all drivers having guns and/or more things to do(a lot more), I don't think its necessary to make all vehicles solo viable. There are vehicles balanced for soloing, and vehicles balanced for going out with a friend or two.

Of course I'm also a fan of drivers being able to bring an extra gunner to take those responsibilities off their hands if they wish. My classic example is the Prowler. Driver controls the chaingun turret, unless a third gunner is found. Both setups have advantages and disadvantages.

I don't particularly agree with the primary weapon being controlled by the driver.

[Elude]

I like the idea of the skyguard being a deployable air turret, but perhaps it could also be changed out with a artillery mortar weapon. Aside from what the sykguard will do, it would also be nice to see it's appearance I think changed from being a buggy the size of a harasser to being more truck like.

I also like your idea of the mosquito, I too do not like the concept of it hovering, it should propel itself forward at a slow speed until you step on the gas to go faster. As for the reaver, I'm hoping this thing will behave more like a two man attack helicopter where you have a pilot with rockets, and a gunner with a fully automatic machine gun.

[CutterJohn]

Tbh, I believe the skyguard would be perfect as a lightning variant. Perhaps cut back on the dps a bit, but otherwise its fine.

[Elude]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Tbh, I believe the skyguard would be perfect as a lightning variant. Perhaps cut back on the dps a bit, but otherwise its fine.

Perhaps that's what it could actually start out with being and later have upgrades for small artillery and anti air.

[SgtMAD]

you can already throw lib bombs inside doorways.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by HtSgtMAD

you can already throw lib bombs inside doorways.

I didn't want to derail the topic. I was imagining allowing a liberator driver to choose different bombs. One of which is a rolling bomb. That's why I made that random statement of flying 90 kph at a door and releasing a bomb. All I'm imagining is it rolling down some stairs then someone staring at it and going "what is that".

[Talek Krell]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

the change that I'd make to enable that is to give the main weapons of a vehicle to the driver(Breathe. This is similar in concept to the BFR)

It's also why you regularly see "Gunner" BFRs leave base without a gunner, or without even a gunner turret. If you want to play by yourself, just use one of the numerous vehicles already available to you.

Originally Posted by Sirisian

The physics for the bombs would be changed such that they behave like real bombs keeping the velocity of the plane that releases them.

You can do that now. Nobody figures that out, it seems like, but you can.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

It's also why you regularly see "Gunner" BFRs leave base without a gunner, or without even a gunner turret. If you want to play by yourself, just use one of the numerous vehicles already available to you.

Pretty sure that only ever gets done because of the tendency of the gunner to 'killsteal' from the driver, depriving him of kills for the FV merit.

Otherwise there is almost zero downside to taking a gunner. A bfr without one is pretty weak.

[Talek Krell]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Pretty sure that only ever gets done because of the tendency of the gunner to 'killsteal' from the driver, depriving him of kills for the FV merit.

I'm not sure that makes it better, although I never asked. Still, I suspect that giving the power to the driver will tend to result in people pulling their own vehicles instead of gunning for each other. Why have one tank with an MG when you can have two tanks? Or a tank and a skyguard, if you're really worried about air.

[Zulthus]

I do think more vehicles could be more like the Mag; where the driver gets a slightly crappy AI weapon, but they definitely should not get the main weapon.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

It's also why you regularly see "Gunner" BFRs leave base without a gunner, or without even a gunner turret. If you want to play by yourself, just use one of the numerous vehicles already available to you.

Yeah I get that mentality. The point isn't to make all the vehicles solo mode. It's more just to balance them so drivers and gunners both have equal weapons such that pulling two of a certain vehicle doesn't really make sense and isn't as rewarding. If you can jump into a tank and launch rockets at the same range as the main gun and kill infantry then it's going to be pretty epic. Having tanks fight on open terrain like they did on Ishundar would make this kind of stuff work well.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Pretty sure that only ever gets done because of the tendency of the gunner to 'killsteal' from the driver, depriving him of kills for the FV merit.

Otherwise there is almost zero downside to taking a gunner. A bfr without one is pretty weak.

Yeah never liked that myself. The sharing of kills when in a vehicle in regards to merits was never fully balanced. That's something that needs to be taken care of in PS2.

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

I'm not sure that makes it better, although I never asked. Still, I suspect that giving the power to the driver will tend to result in people pulling their own vehicles instead of gunning for each other. Why have one tank with an MG when you can have two tanks? Or a tank and a skyguard, if you're really worried about air.

That's actually a really excellent point. They could. In other words it promotes symbiotic mutualism. The idea being why pull your own when you can just jump in the tank and get the same features. (Remember people in the tank share experience).

Originally Posted by Zulthus

I do think more vehicles could be more like the Mag; where the driver gets a slightly crappy AI weapon, but they definitely should not get the main weapon.

Why? I already suggested that the secondary weapon is basically of equal power for a different armor group (AI/AA).

[Zulthus]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Why? I already suggested that the secondary weapon is basically of equal power for a different armor group (AI/AA).

The driver is driving; the gunner is gunning. I really like the way it is in PlanetSide right now. I see no need at all for the driver to have a gun. A vehicle is designed to counter and fill a certain role; be it AA, AV, or AI. I don't think the driver of a team-oriented vehicle should be able to solo with it because no one is around to gun for him.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Zulthus

The driver is driving; the gunner is gunning.

But it doesn't have to be as clear-cut as that. There's no reason really why the game can't be more engaging for the driver. Looking at the roles like that just limits choices.

Originally Posted by Zulthus

I really like the way it is in PlanetSide right now. I see no need at all for the driver to have a gun.

Is this because you enjoy driving or because you like the mandatory teamwork that relying on a gunner brings to the game or something else?

Originally Posted by Zulthus

A vehicle is designed to counter and fill a certain role; be it AA, AV, or AI.

This still does that. It just means the driver would fulfill that roll with a gunner providing extra support.

Originally Posted by Zulthus

I don't think the driver of a team-oriented vehicle should be able to solo with it because no one is around to gun for him.

It can still be a team-oriented vehicle by having obvious weaknesses that make it an easy kill without teamwork. It's just that it's not mandatory. It's purely advantageous to have someone get in the other gunner spot. However, it's not mandatory if you can't get someone it just puts you at a disadvantage to other tanks with extra gunners.

Also another point that was made a long time ago in another thread was about upgrading vehicles and spending time on researching upgrades for your gunners. It's pretty nice of you to put in say a 5% faster reload instead of researching stuff for your character. Maybe I'm selfish though when it comes to upgrades on vehicles.

[Talek Krell]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

If you can jump into a tank and launch rockets at the same range as the main gun and kill infantry then it's going to be pretty epic.

Our concepts of epic continue to be radically different.

Originally Posted by Sirisian

That's actually a really excellent point. They could. In other words it promotes symbiotic mutualism. The idea being why pull your own when you can just jump in the tank and get the same features. (Remember people in the tank share experience).

A second vehicle will come with it's own health bar, as well as the ability to flank. With armor now being directional, that's exceptionally important.