@ Devs: Techincal Question about Forgelight

[The Degenatron]

The maps in PS2 are 8k x 8k. Is this a hard coded limit of the Forgelight Engine or is this a design choice made by the PS2 dev team to fit within specific client/server resource parameters?

Is this something that can be expanded for less intentive games that don't need to track as many objects? If so, what do you think the theoretical maximum bounding box would be? If not, how well does the PhysX components handle scaling? Could you for instance make the world 2x as large by building everything at 1/2 scale (admittedly sacraficing detail), and still have the physics behave properly (this was the downfall two very promising Mods for the Source engine - HL Rally and Empires).

What tools are you guys using for your 3-D modeling and rendering?


Additionally, on the corperate policy side (I completely understand if this gets a "no comment" or "we're not involved with that" type of answer):

Is SOE looking to apply Forgelight to any other IPs in its library other than EQ3? Is SOE looking to aquire additional IPs that fit well with the Forgelight engine?

Do you think SOE is moving towards licensing the engine to third parties?

(Again, if you can't answer those, it's completely understandable)

The reason I ask these questions is because when I look at the videos from PS2, I can't help but be struck by what this means, not just for Planetside, but for Massive Gaming as a whole. I'm sure you guys know far better than any of us what a real powderkeg y'all are sitting on, and I'm intrested to hear y'alls take on what Forgelight brings to the industry as a whole.

Thanks for all of the great work you are doing!

[The Kush]

Cool questions but I highly doubt they will answer those.

[basti]

Originally Posted by The Degenatron

The maps in PS2 are 8k x 8k. Is this a hard coded limit of the Forgelight Engine or is this a design choice made by the PS2 dev team to fit within specific client/server resource parameters?

Is this something that can be expanded for less intentive games that don't need to track as many objects? If so, what do you think the theoretical maximum bounding box would be? If not, how well does the PhysX components handle scaling? Could you for instance make the world 2x as large by building everything at 1/2 scale (admittedly sacraficing detail), and still have the physics behave properly (this was the downfall two very promising Mods for the Source engine - HL Rally and Empires).

They are using the same engine for EQNext, so its save to assume that 8x8 is just a gameplay number, and they could go way way way way wayyyyyyyy bigger. But a gigantic continent of 100x100km wouldnt make much sense, even if you could fill it with 10k people. At some point, you need to stop expanding. Technology is way better than back in 2003, but it still wont be able to give you a proper FPS expirience with 9999 other guys around you, in case all 10k decide to cluster at one area.

Originally Posted by The Degenatron

What tools are you guys using for your 3-D modeling and rendering?

They use Maya, z-Brush, Photoshop and x-normal. Thats at least the common package it seems (taken directly from the SOE career page). Maybe some dudes do some fancy stuff, who knows.

Originally Posted by The Degenatron

The reason I ask these questions is because when I look at the videos from PS2, I can't help but be struck by what this means, not just for Planetside, but for Massive Gaming as a whole. I'm sure you guys know far better than any of us what a real powderkeg y'all are sitting on, and I'm intrested to hear y'alls take on what Forgelight brings to the industry as a whole.

What forgelight does isnt new, it has been done before. But just in small instances, seperated. Nobody ever attempted to collect all the tech and build it into one engine. SOE went even one step further and build a engine just for that purpose.

Client side, the whole thing isnt magic. With some optimization, you could fill any engine with a similar level of detail and 2000 players. The magic really happens server side. Im pretty sure they figured that a single core cant handle all the load from one continent, so they decided to split it. Pretty much the same these guys do: http://www.muchdifferent.com/1000PlayerFPS/faq.php

Back in 2003, this simply wasnt possible. There simply wasnt Multi coring going on much. These days, we got octacores, and 80 core chips and more are being under research.

Its that, or they just grinded fariys to dust and put that dust into a USB slot, causing forgelight to happen.

[QuantumMechanic]

I am really looking forward to seeing how they apply Forgelight to EQ:Next. It's done a great job in creating more realistic-looking environments (Auraxis) but I want to see what that baby can do to some fantasy landscapes!

[Pillar of Armor]

Originally Posted by basti

Client side, the whole thing isnt magic. With some optimization, you could fill any engine with a similar level of detail and 2000 players. The magic really happens server side. Im pretty sure they figured that a single core cant handle all the load from one continent, so they decided to split it. Pretty much the same these guys do: http://www.muchdifferent.com/1000PlayerFPS/faq.php

Yep, there is probably some massive parallel processing going on. That, or each region/hex is mapped to a server. Though, would be hard to imagine that they wouldn't have some sort of MPS (Message Passing System) with multiple machines set up for each node. The complicated part is where combat occurs across hexes/regions. The servers need some mechanism to communicate (at a very high data rate) and work out the result of multiple client requests together.

[zomg]

Originally Posted by basti

Back in 2003, this simply wasnt possible. There simply wasnt Multi coring going on much. These days, we got octacores, and 80 core chips and more are being under research.

Who needs multicores when you can have multi-CPU

[SergeantNubins]

Is it 8 x 8? i thought it was 64 x 64? 8x8 km seems pretty small, bf3 maps are a few km x a few km and they say the facilities are the size of one of those maps.. there are many facilities on each map?

Most of the air vehicles in the game seemed to be doing about 230 mph.. i think, from their HUD's during the e3 dogfights..

so it would take a reaver approxamtely 1 minute & 30 seconds to travel the length of the map?

Even it was kph on the HUD... it would be 2 minutes and 50 seconds.. that cant be right.

[SergeantNubins]

Hmm seems it is after looking around.. doesnt seem as big as i thought it was now

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by basti

Its that, or they just grinded fariys to dust and put that dust into a USB slot, causing forgelight to happen.

This.
I'll take romance any day over technology. (This is the soppy, romantic side of Vanu speaking)

[basti]

Originally Posted by Mechzz

This.
I'll take romance any day over technology. (This is the soppy, romantic side of Vanu speaking)

Traitor!

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by basti

Traitor!

Well, none of the empires cater to my innate romantic nature!

And Vanu does not have the nasty fascist/imperialist overtones of the other factions.

Vanu is a broad church, my brother. And my Lasher is mighty in defence of the true faith!

[ringring]

Originally Posted by SergeantNubins

Is it 8 x 8? i thought it was 64 x 64? 8x8 km seems pretty small, bf3 maps are a few km x a few km and they say the facilities are the size of one of those maps.. there are many facilities on each map?

Most of the air vehicles in the game seemed to be doing about 230 mph.. i think, from their HUD's during the e3 dogfights..

so it would take a reaver approxamtely 1 minute & 30 seconds to travel the length of the map?

Even it was kph on the HUD... it would be 2 minutes and 50 seconds.. that cant be right.

The maps are 64 square KM, ie 8x8, rather than 64 KM square, 64x64, or at least approximately.

[Lorgarn]

Originally Posted by SergeantNubins

Is it 8 x 8? i thought it was 64 x 64? 8x8 km seems pretty small, bf3 maps are a few km x a few km and they say the facilities are the size of one of those maps.. there are many facilities on each map?

Most of the air vehicles in the game seemed to be doing about 230 mph.. i think, from their HUD's during the e3 dogfights..

so it would take a reaver approxamtely 1 minute & 30 seconds to travel the length of the map?

Even it was kph on the HUD... it would be 2 minutes and 50 seconds.. that cant be right.

You've clearly misunderstood the devs regarding this.

They've been saying 64 square-kilometres big map. (8x8km=64km2) a 64x64 would be EXTREMELY large.

[The Degenatron]

Originally Posted by basti

They are using the same engine for EQNext, so its save to assume that 8x8 is just a gameplay number, and they could go way way way way wayyyyyyyy bigger. But a gigantic continent of 100x100km wouldnt make much sense, even if you could fill it with 10k people. At some point, you need to stop expanding. Technology is way better than back in 2003, but it still wont be able to give you a proper FPS expirience with 9999 other guys around you, in case all 10k decide to cluster at one area.

Don't get me wrong, the scale for PS2 is more than I could ever hope for. I don't assume that just because it's being used for EQ3 that it is directly scalible. They could just as easily "Zone" areas that are 8x8 and use gates to pass between zones.

I'm not thinking about larger scales merely for "bigger FPSs". For example, I'm a huge fan of Test Drive Unlimited 2. For those that aren't familiar, Eden Studios built an engine that suppoorts a landmass of 50miles x 50miles and used it to model Oahu. And while it it free-roam, the trick is that the server acts only as a "dynamic match maker" for the clients. The max number of client that can be together in a single session is 8. I look at PS2 and think "What would TDU be like with 1000 players on the road?".

Or look at games like Freelancer and Jumpgate Evolution where you need huge volumes to simulate the expanse of space.

Originally Posted by basti

They use Maya, z-Brush, Photoshop and x-normal. Thats at least the common package it seems (taken directly from the SOE career page). Maybe some dudes do some fancy stuff, who knows.

Yea, I found that looking through some of the video. Maya is so freakin' expensive. $3500 is the outrageous, especially just to learn on.

Originally Posted by basti

What forgelight does isnt new, it has been done before. But just in small instances, seperated. Nobody ever attempted to collect all the tech and build it into one engine. SOE went even one step further and build a engine just for that purpose.

Client side, the whole thing isnt magic. With some optimization, you could fill any engine with a similar level of detail and 2000 players. The magic really happens server side. Im pretty sure they figured that a single core cant handle all the load from one continent, so they decided to split it. Pretty much the same these guys do: http://www.muchdifferent.com/1000PlayerFPS/faq.php

You say "any engine", but Hi-Rez attempted to do the same thing with the UT3 engine and ended up hitting a brick wall. They had to scrap their plans to go "truly massive" in Global Agenda. They said they were going to do it with Tribes, but Ihaven't heard anything about it since then.

Originally Posted by basti

Back in 2003, this simply wasnt possible. There simply wasnt Multi coring going on much. These days, we got octacores, and 80 core chips and more are being under research.

It truly is a great time to be alive. I hope all of you kids appreciate this!

"Wouldya give it a minute?! It's gotta go to space!" - Louis CK

Originally Posted by basti

Its that, or they just grinded fariys to dust and put that dust into a USB slot, causing forgelight to happen.

I prefer doves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature..._NoEUoj0#t=86s

[Sephirex]

Originally Posted by SergeantNubins

Hmm seems it is after looking around.. doesnt seem as big as i thought it was now

Keep in mind a 8x8 map is 64 times larger than a 1x1 map.