Gameplay: Spotting done the right way

[super pretendo]

Originally Posted by The Degenatron

I hate to be the wet blanket, but this seems like too much data to transmit.

While the idea is cool, you have to think about how big that's going to be for just one instance of it, and then multiply it by a few hundred. Not the mention all of the people reciving the feed (still image).

I don't care how broad your broad-band is, that's gonna choke the servers - even with the highest compression gif format you could find (which would degrade the images to the point of being useless).

I know it looks like the Forgelight engine can do wonders, but let's not expect the world.

Not how it would work braj, all theyd have to do is call client-side models etc with a few bits of data that are just precise enough for tactical consideration

[The Degenatron]

Originally Posted by super pretendo

Not how it would work braj, all theyd have to do is call client-side models etc with a few bits of data that are just precise enough for tactical consideration

That solves the problem with video streaming, granted. But now you're heaping more onto the client CPU and GPU. In effect, asking their system to run a real time "Demo Reel" on top the of processing what is happening in the players view.

To accomplish that with any fidelity you'd have to scale the render down so far it would be difficult to even tell what was being shown in the "stream". An example of this would be to look at any game that gives you a second on-screen view - for example driving simulators with active rear view mirrors. You will notice that they NEVER give you the same draw distance or polygon rendering detail that you get from the forward view. For example look here:


As you can see, the rear view mirrors and hood reflections pop-in distances are dramaticly reduced. And I can tell you from experience that this is running on one of the highest detail settings on a rather nice setup (judging by framerates).

Now your expecting PS2 to do the exact same thing, except with a high level of detail and high fidelity from a remote camera controlled by another player? And you're still asking the servers to stream data reguarding the observers' camera positions and lists of visible objects. You're asking a lot. Too much I'd recon. And if you are not expecting the observer to supply a list of visible objects, then that means that all clients would then need access to everyother players postitions at all times "just in case" a live stream is started at any time, and that seems EXTREMELY exploitable.

Also, please do not refer to me as "bra" unless I am either doing keg-stands in your frat house or lifting and seperating your breats while giving you all-day comfort.

[BillyBob]

Originally Posted by Immigrant

Ok, guys I've been reading the spotting thread in PS2 discussion sub-forum and I've got an idea how it could be done correctly to avoid all possible exploits.

You'll always be able to inform your comrades via VOIP but that method lacks the visual component and we all know that picture is worth a thousand words.

Here is my idea:

WHAT CLASSES SHOULD HAVE IT? Infiltrator and Light Assault only should have this ability.

HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE? When person get in position and presses "spot button" his visual input should be sent to screen of all the comrades in his squad. As soon as spotter starts moving quickly or firing video link should be terminated.

WHAT PROBLEMS ARE AVOIDED? Blind spotting in the dark or through the vegetation. Doesn't not make aiming easy simply informs other of incoming threat. Thus can't be exploited for solo use.

POSSIBLE PROBLEMS? This kind of spotting would actually require good positioning from a spotter to be useful for this comrades (i.e. it would be the best if spotter was up high and had both his mates and incoming enemy in his view). But this could actually be a good thing imo since it would require skill and effort to be useful. If you spotted blindly in the dark your mates would get nothing useful.

Here is a preview how it should look:



(this screen makes no sense; NC guy showing TR spot-cam; it's just an example made from two 1st person screenshots I found)

p.s. please discuss, try to find flaws and point to them, also vote it up if you like the idea.

Overall I agree on having a spotting mechanic that is limited to one or two classes (e.g. Infiltrator and/or Lights Assault) as I think it would be a cool feature as well as something that would make those classes more unique and allow them have an additional function.

However, I'm not so sure about the "Picture-in-Picture" implementation.

First, as someone else mentioned, the possible performance impact (both client- and serverside) needs to be taken into account.

I also wonder about the possible recursion that would occur when several players with this function look at each other.

Furthermore, I think a squad size that has been mentioned is 10 players? If that is the case, then technically you could end up with 9 "feeds" at the same time. By looking at your example and visualizing 8 more mini-screens it's not difficult to imagine the potential clutter.

Of course, there may be ways around all these possible issues.

Personally though, here's what I think:

- Add a simple spotting function to for example the Infiltrator similar to the one currently in Battlefield 3. When spotted, the enemy unit in question will appear on your squadmembers maps and radars.

- Perhaps add a limited function to send a photo, or alternatively a short live sequence, to the squad leader.

Again, I adding some sort of "spotting" or "observation" functionality to for example the Infiltrator will make the class more viable and add another unique role, making it more interesting.

/BB

[Knotz]

Day 2 footage of E3 at around 39 mins in:

"what he could do right there is hit Q and kinda spot that guy so that anybody thats in that building thats on his team should actually be able to see that" - Krohn

[Fek]

3D spotting is a terrible feature that does not belong in any shape or form in any FPS.

Minimap only spotting, which requires some form of active input from a player (rather than BF3's god-awful auto-spotting on mouseover) is the limit to how far this sort of feature should go.

The embedded camera idea is really nice, though it is probably too late at this stage for it to be implemented.

[BillyBob]

Originally Posted by Fek

3D spotting is a terrible feature that does not belong in any shape or form in any FPS.

Minimap only spotting, which requires some form of active input from a player (rather than BF3's god-awful auto-spotting on mouseover) is the limit to how far this sort of feature should go.

Ok, but could you perhaps give an example to describe exactly why you think this is such a bad idea?

I personally think it works pretty well in BF3, but I'm sincerely curious as you may have a very good point which I might have missed or haven't considered.

/BB

[Toppopia]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

Ok, but could you perhaps give an example to describe exactly why you think this is such a bad idea?

I personally think it works pretty well in BF3, but I'm sincerely curious as you may have a very good point which I might have missed or haven't considered.

/BB

Its bad because you can just spam the spot button and immediately have spotted 5 enemies that you might have otherwise not seen and can just aim for the little triangle and be guaranteed to hit, i normally spot to help my team or scan the horizon for other snipers.

But i think the only spotting we need is a person being able to place 1 marker where he is aiming, it doesn't follow anyone, and if he marks another spot, the previous marker disappears so that you don't get spammed by these things, and it tells your nearby friendlies "I spotted something over here, unknown number of hostiles. Or you want to mark an area of interest for your squad to move to, you can mark the ground. This sounds better than most automatic spotting that follows an enemy.

Add so you can place different colored markers. Tap the button once to place red marker to say enemy, danger, warning etc. Double tap to place blue marker for 'area of interest'. And maybe a triple tap for green marker for 'move here' but thats what a blue could be used for.

Edit: New feature (copied what i wrote below).

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by Toppopia

Its bad because you can just spam the spot button and immediately have spotted 5 enemies that you might have otherwise not seen and can just aim for the little triangle and be guaranteed to hit, i normally spot to help my team or scan the horizon for other snipers.

But i think the only spotting we need is a person being able to place 1 marker where he is aiming, it doesn't follow anyone, and if he marks another spot, the previous marker disappears so that you don't get spammed by these things, and it tells your nearby friendlies "I spotted something over here, unknown number of hostiles. Or you want to mark an area of interest for your squad to move to, you can mark the ground. This sounds better than most automatic spotting that follows an enemy.

I actually like this idea. Just spot a place an use VOIP to give additional info. Simple and elegant.

[Toppopia]

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

I actually like this idea. Just spot a place an use VOIP to give additional info. Simple and elegant.

Or maybe add so you can place different colored markers, but how would that work? Tap the button once to place red marker to say enemy, double tap to place blue marker for 'area of interest'. That could work, i thought about triple tap for green marker for 'move here' but thats what a blue could be.

I'll put this into a new thread if enough people like it.

[Knotz]

Originally Posted by Toppopia

Or maybe add so you can place different colored markers, but how would that work? Tap the button once to place red marker to say enemy, double tap to place blue marker for 'area of interest'. That could work, i thought about triple tap for green marker for 'move here' but thats what a blue could be.

I'll put this into a new thread if enough people like it.

It would have to be something you could cert into, and if certs are in tree's then it would be in a 'leadership tree' or something like that, but otherwise yeah I like it

[BillyBob]

Originally Posted by Toppopia

Its bad because you can just spam the spot button and immediately have spotted 5 enemies that you might have otherwise not seen and can just aim for the little triangle and be guaranteed to hit, i normally spot to help my team or scan the horizon for other snipers.

But i think the only spotting we need is a person being able to place 1 marker where he is aiming, it doesn't follow anyone, and if he marks another spot, the previous marker disappears so that you don't get spammed by these things, and it tells your nearby friendlies "I spotted something over here, unknown number of hostiles. Or you want to mark an area of interest for your squad to move to, you can mark the ground. This sounds better than most automatic spotting that follows an enemy.

Add so you can place different colored markers. Tap the button once to place red marker to say enemy, danger, warning etc. Double tap to place blue marker for 'area of interest'. And maybe a triple tap for green marker for 'move here' but thats what a blue could be used for.

Edit: New feature (copied what i wrote below).

Ok, fair enough.

I personally don't think I would have any issues with having spotting work in the way you describe.

I would also be in favor of it being an exclusive feature limited to just one class (or at the very most two) such as the Infiltrator.

I think allowing for this class to carry out this unique and specific task would add to its role and function...which in this case could be considered a Recon one.

/BB

[BillyBob]

Originally Posted by Knotz

It would have to be something you could cert into, and if certs are in tree's then it would be in a 'leadership tree' or something like that, but otherwise yeah I like it

I agree, it should be a specialization and would IMO serve very well as something you'd need to put certification points into.

However, I still believe it should only be accessible by and limited to one class like the Infiltrator...as it would allow it to carry out a unique task which in turn would give people another good reason to cert into and play it.

/BB

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

Ok, fair enough.

I personally don't think I would have any issues with having spotting work in the way you describe.

I would also be in favor of it being an exclusive feature limited to just one class (or at the very most two) such as the Infiltrator.

I think allowing for this class to carry out this unique and specific task would add to its role and function...which in this case could be considered a Recon one.

/BB

I agree. Currently it seems like sniper infiltrators don't have much to do besides sit around and take potshots. I love the idea of painting targets again like I used to in PS1.

[Lanka]

Don't think spots showing only on minimap would work too well. If maps were flat, sure, but you've seen how many layers the maps have; massive base structures with multiple floors. Now plonk a red dot on map and people at everyfloor will be confused where it is.

That's assuming the map doesn't automaticly change to same layer you're at and that the markers would show to everyone in the empire, not just same team where you can better describe the mark though VOIP.


3D markers please. Just not drawing them through objects and same general marker for all the threats. Could even just make the marker on closest solid surface at the target area so it wouldn't snap to highlighted players or anything like that.

For such use 1 spot at the time for any player and some recon cert tree for +x spots would seem fair, perhaps?

If it gets spammy with markers it could very well be restricted to same vehicle/team/squad/company/outfit/etc. Maybe just make SL/anyone with said Recon certs show up for everyone in the empire?