Ghost capping zergs - air domination everywhere else - wordt 2x event ever.

[Beefnoodles]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

I honestly think that this situation (which occurs a TON on Genudine due to the moderate numbers of players everywhere except the Crown), can be solved with a couple of changes:

1) Drastically increase exp gain when fighting in territories where you are very outnumbered. I would love to defend, except I have a 2-3 KDR when fighting equal numbers. It drops down to ~1 or less if I am taking on the zerg outnumbered. I hate how slow I gain exp (and less importantly the hit my KDR takes) when I try to fight the zerg.

2) Bring back squad-only galaxy AMS. Allowing squads to attack territories without having to travel on foot is a huge deal. My outfit and I normally roll in groups of 1-2 squads. We often don't even get to our objective, because we run into the zerg or get bombed by air. It is really not fun, but we have to go on foot, because we NEED a spawn point (sunderer).

If we could travel in gals with squad spawn, it would be faster, safer, and give us the vital spawn point we need. It would also let us outmaneuver the zerg without getting farmed (or at least not farmed as often).

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy -
Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

I appreciate the concern. Since I have a crap work schedule and have had weekend commitments my primetime play with my outfit has been on the order of about 4 hours since release. The rest of my game time has been late night and i've seen this issue basically my entire time in game.

As has been said, the dynamic XP thing is the quickest fix I can see. Removing the benefit from doing dumb. There of course, like in PS1 you had some guy that was having a bad day in RL or was fed up with getting repeatedly farmed and went off and drained a whole continent or just flipped as many bases on an empty continent as possible just to pull people away from the fight. People will still do it but to remove the GCB (Ghost Capping Blob) take away their XP.

As Bags (14 K/D) tried to point out the cert/XP gain is miserable for ghost capping. As many others (o.5 K/D) are pointing out gaining that XP/Certs is important because the cert cost of everything is so high. Personally I think the cert costs/real money cost are about nailed. I know they went up and down a bunch and I don't really have an issue. There is always something to work for (I don't feel it is a grind) and it WOULD suck to have everything too quick, would just lead to asking "why not just give it all to us from the start?"

Anyway on top of the dynamic XP. There is the XP gain for strategic stuff as I have said before. Towers in PS1. The ones that were used for taking a base were crucial. Everyone knew it, they were taken for their tactical value, XP wasn't needed and wasn't given and that was good. Same thing with killing Gens. In the wee hours i've gone to empty AMP stations to figure out, I guess exploitable ways to get vehicles around... every gen blown and every term down. I don't know who wants to do that for XP but they are obviously out there.
Simply XP changes encouraging fun... like fighting.

The other and much bigger issue from the ability to change is the base design. I don't have as much on the side of good suggestions for change, but can say a few things.
The outposts around the bases seem designed FOR the attacker. It is obvious they are needed in the progression of taking the base but their set-up and locations FEEL like they are designed to help attack a major base rather than defend them. Since that is the case it eliminates that part of the needed progression.

You had pointed out in another thread PS1 had issues with Air/Tanks camping doors after taking a CY and keeping player inside a base. The biggest difference? WE STILL CONTROLLED THE BASE. There was also the possibility of breaking the siege. Taking out the AMSs cloaker, Libs from Sanc or other base, OS, plus re-taking the tower when those things happened in conjunction a team could push back out. Now with multiple points around the base and AMS's which everyone could have pullable from all of them even if the base was made defensible breaking the siege? Not sure it is possible.
Also with the PS1 base siege, as was also pointed out in another thread, there was a progression. Open field battle - Tower fight - CY fight - Lobby fight - Basement fight - Hack - Spawn.
Here everything is not just compressed but upside down, and totally missing the lobby/basefight and has gotten worse with the base changes to eliminate the "exploited" AMS locations inside the bases where you could defend.
Also pointed out here, the jump pad things and the base walls of the AMP station just are too beneficial to the attacker and hard to use by the defense. I don't see that changing though, especially with the note a few weeks back about improving the lone wolf aspect of LA. That and drop pods into the middle of the base. I can see being able to sneak in and getting a spawn beacon down to allow it, but for the instant action? It is just really powerful and is a very big issue with being able to properly defend a CY.

TL;DR
Dynamic XP
Defensible Bases
2 biggest issues in making people fight rather than the ghost hack blob.

[p0intman]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

Defense isn't viable atm. Go and change that, and see what happens. I bet if liberators and tanks had less of an immediate effect, you'd see more infantry -fighting- and less camping/blobbing.

there needs to be a definite line at all facilities - outposts, towers and main bases alike - where tank spam stops and infantry fighting begins. the base design in ps1 was well done for this exact reason. go take a look at them again with this in mind.

until then, im going to get my infantry fighting fix with dayz/arma2/wasteland. its much more fun when personal ability comes into play.

[bpostal]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

Farming is what's going on here. Farming the 'most efficient' path of cert gain. There seems to me, to be a bias towards the majority of players to work towards the certs (and the personal gain) it brings at the expense of more (but potentially more rewarding, game play wise) strategic gameplay. Those who are not in large outfits are at an extreme disadvantage when they encounter the enemy zerg and are quickly overwhelmed, leaving a bad taste in their mouth.
I'd bring up the lattice, although I know you have more experience with it than I do, and how it funneled these opposing zerg together in a chaotic, orgasmic frenzy of murder and mayhem. The same can be accomplished with the hex system but it takes much more thought on the behalf of the players (new players especially) to locate the opposing zerg and move to not only engage, but to engage in an favorable location.
I can't really propose any ironclad solutions other than to change base layout to aid in nullifying enemy vehicle spam at the final push for the control point (a la Planetside) and tip the favor towards a smaller number of defenders when they're faced with a large number of defenders.
Figment has a rather high quality thread on the official forums with suggestions that are much better than anything I could come up with.
As it currently stands defense has a very high turnover rate, facility-wise in that one person can flip a base seconds after the last defender leaves for the next base that needs attention (and that one person has either flipped the base before defense has gotten a proper chance to respond, or as good as.) It's a small piece of metagame that I've taken to referring to as "Ring around the 'go fuck yourself'"

[Arkanakaz]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

The problem I have as an individual is that unlike in PlanetSide 1 where there was the 'tactical overlay' and the base alert system (yellow, orange and red). In PlanetSide 2 it is much harder to tell where the enemy is.

My goal is like yours, as in to find a fight. If I want it to be a good fight then no side can have more than say 70% of the population in that area. If either empire has 70% or more then the one side isn't able to fight back and the fight is over too quickly - often before I can get there.

I try to make the most of the 'enemy activity' feature and the population reveal that each hex gives but I find it hard to see where there is going to be an even, and therefore prolonged fight. I like to think as a PlanetSide 1 veteran I am better than most at interpreting the continental map but I still find that I end up traveling for some time to reach an area only to find that we are either overwhelming with our numbers, or the enemy is overwhelming us with theirs. I suspect others have the same problem of trying to track both friendlies and enemies so that they can see where the balanced fight is going to be.

I feel if information on enemy and friendly population movements were more accurate it would make it easier for the blobs to find each other. It would also mean that defense would be more worthwhile as you could have a better guess at where the enemy is going to attack next. At the moment it inset worth guarding a location as it is too hard to tell if somewhere is going to be attacked and you don't want people standing around doing nothing. Also only start to defend an area when it is already being captured and the blob already has a grip and small groups and individuals turning up are going to be easily defeated. This causes very few to turn up as no individual or group wants to spend time traveling there only to find they are the only ones from their empire that has turned up to defend.

So more information on friendly and enemy movements to help people find the even fights would be my suggested solution.

[Rivenshield]

Originally Posted by Arkanakaz

The problem I have as an individual is that unlike in PlanetSide 1 where there was the 'tactical overlay' and the base alert system (yellow, orange and red). In PlanetSide 2 it is much harder to tell where the enemy is.

Yeah, it's confusing as hell. Little burst of flame on the map that when I mouse over them tell me NO ENEMY ACTIVITY.... flashing hex-blobs in different-colored parts of the map... a pie chart that I swear to God the first two weeks told me the proportion of the population of the various combatants, rather than 'influence', which I can bloody well see by looking at the map anyway.... The old alert system was intuitive and easy to understand. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel, guys.

And the however-long-it-is cooldown period for 'instant action', plus the I-can't-go-anywhere unless-the-green-tabs-tell-me-I-can dynamic means in a lot of cases I drop, either find nothing going on or get run over by the enemy zerg, fall back and find no co-defenders, and have to /suicide for the next few minutes to get to somewhere good. Or recall to the WG and swap conts, then /suicide-travel to get into battle. It blows.

Higby expressly took away our sanctuaries to *reduce* the amount of time it took to get into a fight. Oh, it's just another loading screen he said. We're streamlining things. Balls! It takes LONGER to find a battle and deploy now. A lot longer, a lot more often.

Originally Posted by Bocheezu

I think the maps are just way too big. They could cut the map size in half easily.

For Indar, move Suarva to where the J908 Impact Site is now and just junk the entire northwest side of the map.

I agree with practically everything you say, but you're kind of throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. Why not divvy Indar in half, from the Crown north? Call it North and South Indar, and link them together via warp gate. Add some rivers in a few canyons and maybe even a scenic waterfall while you're at it, once they get water to the point where they're happy. It could be a special siesmic in-game mega-event.... not a Bending, just a fuckhueg earthquake.

[Mietz]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

Here is my perspective, something slightly different from the other posts.

A lot of people have brought up the skinner box effect and how people seem to be only interested in gaining certs and XP.

This is only part of the problem, the second element that reinforces this behavior is the lack of permanence and failure conditions. Your design of PS2 seems to rely solely on incentives for activities without having failure conditions or penalties for those activities.

You take a base, you get rewarded.
You kill, you get rewarded.
You repair, you get rewarded.
You heal, you get rewarded.
etc.

Since all your incentives are rewards, people gravitate towards a min-max attitude: What gives best rewards/minute played.
There isn't any risk and no risk-vs-reward calculation, hence nobody really cares about objectives.

Right now the resource system isn't a strong enough penalty to be considered, this leads to people holding the Crown on Indar for hours on end while losing all territories around it.
The penalties must be severe to make players follow the design.

What if:

a. death wasn't inconsequential and higher death rates would mean higher respawn timers (with cap at X)
b. facilities had vehicles and consumables attached to them (like the Tech Plant with the MBT)
etc.

If you look at the gameplay for a while you will notice that Tech Plants are considered more important and are more often defended, its your only penalty that works. (Indar has its own problems with 3 tech plants and the crown not really requiring that much armor to take or defend, but Esamir has only one and the fight is always on)

Give people something to fight for (to avoid penalties and failure).

I hope you will consider this input.

[Rivenshield]

Originally Posted by Mietz

Right now the resource system isn't a strong enough penalty to be considered, this leads to people holding the Crown on Indar for hours on end while losing all territories around it.
The penalties must be severe to make players follow the design.

/groan

Dude. This is a game. You don't make people follow your God almighty game design by penalizing them. You simply make them go 'This blows' and they quit and then they go tell all their friends about it. And in the modern social media age, that's lethal poison.

You incentivize forms of gameplay by rewarding, not by taking away.

[TheBladeRoden]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

"Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak." - Sun Tzu said that

[p0intman]

Originally Posted by TheBladeRoden

"Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak." - Sun Tzu said that

Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man. Anything built by man, can be destroyed by him.
General George S. Patton.

See? I can quote military legends too.

Actually, Ive got a better one
I don't want to get any messages saying, "I am holding my position." We are not holding a Goddamned thing. Let the Germans do that. We are advancing constantly and we are not interested in holding onto anything, except the enemy's balls. We are going to twist his balls and kick the living shit out of him all of the time. Our basic plan of operation is to advance and to keep on advancing regardless of whether we have to go over, under, or through the enemy. We are going to go through him like crap through a goose; like shit through a tin horn!
-General George S. Patton

and to use Sun Tzu to demonstrate your own idiocy to you and to that of anyone else who wants to defend the status quo with Sun Tzu quotes, as it pertains to the giant zergfest idiocy right now:

In war, numbers alone confer no advantage. Do not advance relying on sheer military power. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War. c.400-320 B.C.

the point is, quotes mean fuck all, so stop using them and acting like you've got a clue.

[james]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

There is no reason to defend, do to most of the points come from capping bases, and kills. Plus an average player, can get just as many points zerging from undefended base to undefended base as they can grinding. I think i can do around 15k an hr capping. I do around 10k an hr when grinding it out in fights with my outfit. Thats with premium tier 6 and 50 percent boost.

The only time we get a decent fight is when the zerg hits us, and when the zerg hits us, most times they just leave

[typhaon]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

I swear this has been covered in literally hundreds of threads....

[SturmovikDrakon]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

My opinion is that there are way too many places that you can attack at once. Usually when looking at the map I can find 10-15 hexes to attack on the frontline, and most of them are abandoned. People are too spread out

Hex system needs a look at or a replacement is needed

Bases design and layout needs to be re-evaluated. Way too big, way too open. I'd rather have more of PS1s smaller, condensed bases than the chaos that we have now.

[Sunrock]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

Make it more valuable to defend your own territory. IMO it's just that simple.

[Flycutter]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The OP isn't crazy - I've observed the same behavior lately, especially late at night. I like to occasionally join random squads and try to be a typical casual player and see how different types of players and outfits experience the game.

This is what I typically see in larger groups - players roll around in a blob from territory to territory getting capture XP and avoiding the enemy. When the blobs meet it is by chance, not intent. When players try to stop the blob they usually get rolled and have little choice but to find their own team's blob and roll with it. Larger outfits have the numbers to chance this behavior, which is why I don't see it on ops. Seen several reddit threads pop up about this sort of thing too.

Seems to be a combination of playing the territory control game + path of least resistance....but it isn't fun...at all. Its the exact opposite of what I experience in outfit play where we intentionally go after the enemy and pick fights because that's where the entertainment is.

Any feedback from the PSU community on contributing factors to this behavior? I have my own thoughts but I'd like to learn what y'all think is going on here.

The zerg has too many different directions to go and since capture XP is the most obvious reward that is where they go.

My suggestions aren't perfect and they are just off the top of my head and not all of them are related to the game's current problems. Some of these may seem ridiculous, but hopefully they will foster some new ideas and discussion from the PS2 design team.

I would take the major bases and increase the size of the surrounding territory to include some of the small outposts. With less paths to take the zerg will have to attack each other. The main base itself would be an impenetrable fortress but the outposts would have objectives that would help open up that fortress to the attackers.

The base benefit would be maintained by a gen that could be taken down, removing the benefits but without flipping the ownership of the base.

The outposts surrounding the bases would have SCU's that would not stop the defense from spawning but would increase their respawn timer. You would need to take down these SCU's to make the defense more manageable. The defense has one way teleports to protect these outposts.

Increase all vehicle resource costs by 25 to 50%. Don't nerf the damage just nerf the availability. The first tech plant that a empire owns provides them liberators and MBT's. The remaining tech plants that they own on other continents would provide a cost reduction to pulling vehicles worldwide as long as they maintain a link.

The more certs you have in a vehicle increases its resource cost.

Nothing on the ground can get through base shields. Galaxy drops and liberators are used to soften up the exterior base defenses while tanks and infantry take the outposts. Once the shields are down the fight moves inside the main base while smaller squads continue to hold the outposts.

Base XP is granted both on offense and defense based on the size of the fight.

Players that switch empires on the same server would have some sort of timer or stiff punishment to prevent them from immediately TK'ing.

Up to 25% XP boost for the under populated empire. This coupled with the worldwide tech plant resource benefit would hopefully spread the fight to other continents.

Special artillery (Flail) that can shoot at a zerg formation from about 1km away. Requires a 3 man team to operate with 30sec to 1 min reload. Two infiltrators designate a target while the driver operates the vehicle. Puggers will have a hard time blindly firing this weapon but a small squad can slow down the zerg's progress. It can carry AV or AI ammo but not both at the same time. I see it as basically a ground based liberator.

The skyguard becomes a two person air killing death machine and requires the same resources as a MBT. Two weapon systems are available, either the current flak cannon or a lock on missile launcher.

Any major changes to a particular weapon in the game gives players a cert refund for that weapon only.

Spawn tubes are moved to the larger buildings hopefully preventing or reducing the current spawn camping by vehicles. I would rather break a defense by crushing their spirit than just spaming my HE prowler. Yes, I spawn camp and yes it feels cheap.