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View Poll Results: Do you want 3rd person on ground vehicles?
Yes, full 3rd person on ground vehicles please, situational awareness is key in driving 76 43.93%
Yes, but like in World of Tanks, only show those units that have actually been spotted 16 9.25%
Maybe, but under very specific conditions: [...] 11 6.36%
I don't really care either way 16 9.25%
No 3rd person at all: remove it from aircraft also, otherwise it's an unfair advantage. 28 16.18%
No 3rd person for GV: I'll gladly get run over by/collide with friendlies and stuck on terrain 23 13.29%
Other 3 1.73%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-23, 04:10 PM   [Ignore Me] #136
Figment
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by captainkapautz View Post
You know, your arguement seems less and less about why 3PV would be needed for reasons like a few people might get motionsick and more and more about why 3PV wold be needed so you can fuck shit up alone in your tank.

Which I sure as fuck hope isn't the direction PS2 is going.
I love how you can easily forget every single post I wrote in this thread by making an even dumber statement than before.

1. I want to have third person for ALL players. Meaning nobody will have an advantage over anyone that the other person doesn't have either.

You know how I beat ground vehicles as infantry? THIRD PERSON TO TIME MY ACTIONS. Look at the damn vid WildVS posted and check just HOW OFTEN Bobbyshaftoe switches to third person to check his surroundings for threats!

And why shouldn't he, or anyone else!?

2. You also seem to forget AGAIN that I'm NOT in favour of solo play, BECAUSE I WANT A DIVISION IN ROLES BETWEEN DRIVER AND GUNNER. My setup would not AT ALL allow for solo play. Compared to PS2, which will be extremely solo play even with just first person view, BECAUSE YOU ALLOW THE DRIVER TO GUN.

Third person has nothing to do with solo play, just with BEING ABLE TO PLAY PROPERLY AT ALL!
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Old 2012-05-23, 04:11 PM   [Ignore Me] #137
MrBloodworth
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Get a room.
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Old 2012-05-23, 04:47 PM   [Ignore Me] #138
captainkapautz
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by MrBloodworth View Post
Here is why its Driver = Gunner.

Battlefield does it, and it also removes the need to rely on others.

As to Third person view, I support the addition.
It is in BF, that's a good reason to add it, true.

Originally Posted by WildVS View Post
How does creating blind spots for tank crews that allow one soldier to c4 it down a matter of seconds promote teamplay? We appear to be seeing this from only one side. The lone c4 runner is acting as a team?
Because then your secondary gunner has to take care of infantrydefense while you drive and gun, instead of you just see anyone trying to sneak up on you from your back.
Yeah 2 people in 1 vehicle actually working together, crazy concept I know.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
1. I want to have third person for ALL players. Meaning nobody will have an advantage over anyone that the other person doesn't have either.

You know how I beat ground vehicles as infantry? THIRD PERSON TO TIME MY ACTIONS. Look at the damn vid WildVS posted and check just HOW OFTEN Bobbyshaftoe switches to third person to check his surroundings for threats!

And why shouldn't he, or anyone else!?
We already know infantry will not have 3PV, so your statement of absolutes that everyone should get it, noone should have it now, because then it would unfair against infantry.

Yeah, and the reason they don't have it is exactly what you posted, the good ol' "Lemme just scope out around this obstacle without putting myself in harms way.".

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
2. You also seem to forget AGAIN that I'm NOT in favour of solo play, BECAUSE I WANT A DIVISION IN ROLES BETWEEN DRIVER AND GUNNER. My setup would not AT ALL allow for solo play. Compared to PS2, which will be extremely solo play even with just first person view, BECAUSE YOU ALLOW THE DRIVER TO GUN.

Third person has nothing to do with solo play, just with BEING ABLE TO PLAY PROPERLY AT ALL!
Yet you crusade like crazy for 3PV, but the Driver-Gunner thing is negligable because it's already in?


P.S.: Meh, this whole branch of "discussion" is getting pointless, cause we all just start to resort to namecalling, without actually listening.
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Old 2012-05-23, 05:02 PM   [Ignore Me] #139
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by WildVS View Post
Along with air, other vehicles, obstructions as well? Guess those should be viewed as his team mates. Got it.
What?
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Old 2012-05-23, 05:14 PM   [Ignore Me] #140
MrBloodworth
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by captainkapautz View Post
It is in BF, that's a good reason to add it, true.
No, its not.
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Old 2012-05-23, 05:23 PM   [Ignore Me] #141
Figment
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by captainkapautz View Post
We already know infantry will not have 3PV, so your statement of absolutes that everyone should get it, noone should have it now, because then it would unfair against infantry.
I do find that unfair.

Yeah, and the reason they don't have it is exactly what you posted, the good ol' "Lemme just scope out around this obstacle without putting myself in harms way.".
...

You do realise I've suggested a lean feature for infantry for looking around corners and have been talking about various ways of doing 3D spotting systems, right?

Right?

Yet you crusade like crazy for 3PV, but the Driver-Gunner thing is negligable because it's already in?
Guess who was annoyingly long crusading in the driver-gunner debate (really, just check the thread(s) on it...) and in beta will continue to do so? I'm extremely strongly opposed to it and have stated so... oh 12 times or more in this very thread and you go and pretend I'm saying it can be neglected?

What? O.o'




Please stop assuming things about what I'm crusading for. You obviously don't remember what I've said in and on any of those topics. :/
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Old 2012-05-23, 05:24 PM   [Ignore Me] #142
Figment
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by WildVS View Post
Along with air, other vehicles, obstructions as well? Guess those should be viewed as his team mates. Got it.
Originally Posted by captainkapautz View Post
What?
He is saying that someone in another tank would have to warn you about that huge rock that you're about to hit (while you're watching sideways or backwards in first person).


Which ironically, you clearly didn't see coming yourself...
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Old 2012-05-23, 05:24 PM   [Ignore Me] #143
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by WildVS View Post
I am saying that a lone wolf hiding in the bushes, while the 2 tank occupants are focused on other vehicles, air units and avoiding obstructions are team mates of the c4 runner handicapped by 1pv are sitting ducks.
Sorry, but I don't get it.
I seriously have no idea what you are trying to say.

Originally Posted by WildVS View Post
BTW the results of the poll are slightly less than favorable for your position.
Doesn't make my opinion any less valid.

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth View Post
No, its not.
So was it supposed to tell us?
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Old 2012-05-23, 05:44 PM   [Ignore Me] #144
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by Figment View Post
You do realise I've suggested a lean feature for infantry for looking around corners and have been talking about various ways of doing 3D spotting systems, right?

Right?
No, I don't.
Why would I, when you whole attitude in this thread screams "fuck infantry, I only care about groundvehicles".
Not to mention that leaning is a piss poor substitute for 3PV, because you still expose yourself and 3D-spotting isn't and better, seeing how that turned out in BF3.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Guess who was annoyingly long crusading in the driver-gunner debate (really, just check the thread(s) on it...) and in beta will continue to do so? I'm extremely strongly opposed to it and have stated so... oh 12 times or more in this very thread and you go and pretend I'm saying it can be neglected?


What? O.o'

Please stop assuming things about what I'm crusading for. You obviously don't remember what I've said in and on any of those topics. :/
Guess who isn't checking every thread you post in to see if you're schizophrenic and crusade for one thing in a thread and the opposite in another.

Because your last posts in this thread here sounded like you want 3PV so the driver doesn't need a second gunner to be effective.

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
He is saying that someone in another tank would have to warn you about that huge rock that you're about to hit (while you're watching sideways or backwards in first person).


Which ironically, you clearly didn't see coming yourself...
Yeah, the whole "The driver is legally blind in 1PV"-arguement which you like to exaggerate to the limit every single time you mention it.
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Old 2012-05-23, 06:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #145
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Second, in PS2... the actual main gunner (the one who controls the turret if it's not the Magrider)... is the driver...

Oh... Hmm. Maybe you should have checked that.
By 'gunner' I was referring to the 2nd seat in PS2 MBTs, seeing as the primary gunner is actually the driver. Reading it now should make more sense.


You just make sure all your outfit buddies are always online and in your area watching your back!

Who's watching the watchmen though? You're in front of them in tunnelvision mode, puking over your keyboard from motion sickness.



Seeing as squadmates can fire for you, why bother bringing a gun?

Bad logic is bad.
Of course I will make sure they're there! If they aren't online I'll go play another game. I get too bored plaything any multiplayer games if it's not with a group of friends. I won't be puking because, like the majority of other players, I'm used to controlling vehicles in 1PV and I don't get any kind of sickness from it. You keep mentioning that as though it's common but I don't think I know anyone I've played with who does suffer from it. I don't play multiplayer games to get a good score, I play them because I love the feeling of teamwork so I don't care if my mates kill enemies for me! As long as I can transport them around and provide support then I'll be happy. Just because I don't care about my k/d doesn't mean my logic is bad.
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Old 2012-05-23, 06:47 PM   [Ignore Me] #146
Figment
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Let's just say you got the wrong impression and leave it at that, okay?

Not to mention that leaning is a piss poor substitute for 3PV, because you still expose yourself and 3D-spotting isn't and better, seeing how that turned out in BF3.
*sigh*

Stop thinking of BF3 spotting, that's a crap system. If you - please - read back on what I've been suggesting since the first post, is a variant on World of Tank spotting. But please start with a blank idea of it, as if you know of no spotting systems in existence.

Here's spotting rules for what I'm suggesting:
  • Third person is available for everyone: infantry / vehicles / aircraft
  • Units that are in direct line of sight with you can be seen (without marker)
  • Units that are in direct line of sight and have been in the close proximity to your cursor count as a "spotted" target and gain a marker (just like markers in PS1)
  • Marked units are considered "known to you".
  • Marked units lose the marker fairly fast when not in the vicinity of someone's aim
  • Information on units that are currently marked is shared with friendlies within a certain radius from you (this could be tweaked and even change per class or unit type). This is called Radio Range in World of Tanks, there sharing radio ranges from 300 to 800 meters, this range may be reduced or different for various classes or vehicle units in PS2 (example: engineer and infil could have a larger sharing radius).
  • Information is passed on between players, even if they did not spot the marked unit themselves to pass this information down the line (all the way to snipers for instance).
  • Units that are unmarked are considered unknown to you and if they are not in direct line of sight are thus NOT rendered for you, even if they are rendered for other friendlies.
  • Leaning would therefore be complementory to third person: it allows you to see if there are targets that have yet to be marked or have lost their mark, at relative low exposure risk to yourself: this does mean you might get spotted yourself however.

This however means that the person spotting and marking you is always in direct line of sight of the person spotted. Could be an infil, of course and that makes infils more important recon units.

ie. a form of teamwork. Someone actively spots and "marks" targets by tracking them, others get to use the information passively.

I don't believe with this amount of enemies it is advisable to have 10-30 people on TeamSpeak having to tell eachother where every single enemy is positioned. That is simply unworkable. Of course, that means that there would be situations where someone knows someone is coming for a corner or knows from behind a ridge there's a tank somewhere (as it's been spotted), but it solves the wallhumping in stairwells and provides enough, but not complete information to base decisions on.



How does that sound?



Yeah, the whole "The driver is legally blind in 1PV"-arguement which you like to exaggerate to the limit every single time you mention it.
Because they are. They will be blind to approximately 260 degrees in a pure FPS view and they can't turn around as fasts as infantry due to turret and hull rotation speed limitations and because those rotations actually impact how effective you are in fighting other units. Being allowed to keep track of an enemy is good for gameplay.

Meanwhile, I have to repeat this because you like to dismiss it off-hand as irrelevant. Even though it has been, is and always will be a significant issue on many different accounts in terms of vehicle gameplay and what this entire thread is about first and foremost.

Motion sickness is to me a secondary concern, but right now mostly because I can always avoid it by going back to third person. I'm not sure if I could stomach it if it was permanent.

I mean, I can't take more than 10 seconds watching through binoculars in an actual car at 90 degrees, every bump in the road is exagerated in the bopping of the view and every turn is desorienting, particularly if you're zoomed in a little bit.
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Old 2012-05-23, 07:11 PM   [Ignore Me] #147
captainkapautz
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Let's just say you got the wrong impression and leave it at that, okay?



*sigh*

Stop thinking of BF3 spotting, that's a crap system. If you - please - read back on what I've been suggesting since the first post, is a variant on World of Tank spotting. But please start with a blank idea of it, as if you know of no spotting systems in existence.

Here's spotting rules for what I'm suggesting:
  • Third person is available for everyone: infantry / vehicles / aircraft
  • Units that are in direct line of sight with you can be seen (without marker)
  • Units that are in direct line of sight and have been in the close proximity to your cursor count as a "spotted" target and gain a marker (just like markers in PS1)
  • Marked units are considered "known to you".
  • Marked units lose the marker fairly fast when not in the vicinity of someone's aim
  • Information on units that are currently marked is shared with friendlies within a certain radius from you (this could be tweaked and even change per class or unit type). This is called Radio Range in World of Tanks, there sharing radio ranges from 300 to 800 meters, this range may be reduced or different for various classes or vehicle units in PS2 (example: engineer and infil could have a larger sharing radius).
  • Information is passed on between players, even if they did not spot the marked unit themselves to pass this information down the line (all the way to snipers for instance).
  • Units that are unmarked are considered unknown to you and if they are not in direct line of sight are thus NOT rendered for you, even if they are rendered for other friendlies.
  • Leaning would therefore be complementory to third person: it allows you to see if there are targets that have yet to be marked or have lost their mark, at relative low exposure risk to yourself: this does mean you might get spotted yourself however.

This however means that the person spotting and marking you is always in direct line of sight of the person spotted. Could be an infil, of course and that makes infils more important recon units.

ie. a form of teamwork. Someone actively spots and "marks" targets by tracking them, others get to use the information passively.

I don't believe with this amount of enemies it is advisable to have 10-30 people on TeamSpeak having to tell eachother where every single enemy is positioned. That is simply unworkable. Of course, that means that there would be situations where someone knows someone is coming for a corner or knows from behind a ridge there's a tank somewhere (as it's been spotted), but it solves the wallhumping in stairwells and provides enough, but not complete information to base decisions on.



How does that sound?
Do units behind you count as not see or do you propose a minimum range where they'll be automatically detected, think 50(?)m and closer in WoT?

Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Because they are. They will be blind to approximately 260 degrees in a pure FPS view and they can't turn around as fasts as infantry due to turret and hull rotation speed limitations and because those rotations actually impact how effective you are in fighting other units. Being allowed to keep track of an enemy is good for gameplay.

Meanwhile, I have to repeat this because you like to dismiss it off-hand as irrelevant. Even though it has been, is and always will be a significant issue on many different accounts in terms of vehicle gameplay and what this entire thread is about first and foremost.

Motion sickness is to me a secondary concern, but right now mostly because I can always avoid it by going back to third person. I'm not sure if I could stomach it if it was permanent.

I mean, I can't take more than 10 seconds watching through binoculars in an actual car at 90 degrees, every bump in the road is exagerated in the bopping of the view and every turn is desorienting, particularly if you're zoomed in a little bit.
Turretrotationalspeed wouldn't be much of an issue, if you had a "1"PV camera independant of the actual turret like in WoT.
I did rather prefer the "zoomed in far enough to almost not seeing/not seeing the tank" camera angle in WoT.

P.S.: Thanks for actually keeping the discussion rather civil, I know I come across as thickheaded and confrontational, I am capable to listen to and agree with a very well thought arguement.
I just dislike "No, it's gotta be like this, otherwise it's bullshit." arguements, though that not directed at you specifically.
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Old 2012-05-23, 07:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #148
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by Figment View Post
Let's just say you got the wrong impression and leave it at that, okay?




Here's spotting rules for what I'm suggesting:
  • Third person is available for everyone: infantry / vehicles / aircraft
  • Units that are in direct line of sight with you can be seen (without marker)
  • Units that are in direct line of sight and have been in the close proximity to your cursor count as a "spotted" target and gain a marker (just like markers in PS1)
  • Marked units are considered "known to you".
  • Marked units lose the marker fairly fast when not in the vicinity of someone's aim
  • Information on units that are currently marked is shared with friendlies within a certain radius from you (this could be tweaked and even change per class or unit type). This is called Radio Range in World of Tanks, there sharing radio ranges from 300 to 800 meters, this range may be reduced or different for various classes or vehicle units in PS2 (example: engineer and infil could have a larger sharing radius).
  • Information is passed on between players, even if they did not spot the marked unit themselves to pass this information down the line (all the way to snipers for instance).
  • Units that are unmarked are considered unknown to you and if they are not in direct line of sight are thus NOT rendered for you, even if they are rendered for other friendlies.
  • Leaning would therefore be complementory to third person: it allows you to see if there are targets that have yet to be marked or have lost their mark, at relative low exposure risk to yourself: this does mean you might get spotted yourself however.

This however means that the person spotting and marking you is always in direct line of sight of the person spotted. Could be an infil, of course and that makes infils more important recon units.
This makes me think of a turn based top down game where you take turns moving units and attack, but that all sounds good, might be a little tricky to implement, but would be good for teamwork, and i guess 20 people yelling where enemies are is annoying, but as long as you yell out a sniper or tank instead of hoping your teammates saw it
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Old 2012-05-23, 07:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #149
Figment
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


Originally Posted by Rozonus View Post
By 'gunner' I was referring to the 2nd seat in PS2 MBTs, seeing as the primary gunner is actually the driver. Reading it now should make more sense.
I know: you assume there are two players inside. I don't. That's the difference. The one driving and in control of the main gun needs situational awareness the most. He should not wait for his gunner to tell him "hey, we're driving against a wall and apparently have been for half a minute now".

Of course I will make sure they're there! If they aren't online I'll go play another game. I get too bored plaything any multiplayer games if it's not with a group of friends. I won't be puking because, like the majority of other players, I'm used to controlling vehicles in 1PV and I don't get any kind of sickness from it. You keep mentioning that as though it's common but I don't think I know anyone I've played with who does suffer from it.
What you just said is called "self-centered design", what you need to realise is that "user-centered design" is a completely different way of thinking (multi-perspective, trying to imagine what it's like for someone you can hardly conceive exists to use your product).

Imagine for instance if all chairs in the world were built under your idea of "I don't have a problem with it, my sparse collection of sample players does not have a problem with it, so it doesn't matter!". Or if all pants and T-shirts were a narrow size "S" because the designer happened to be a thin female and figured that if it fit her, it should fit everyone else and they should deal with it?

You think that a game or cartoon should have flashy graphics that cause epileptic strokes just because the designer and the people he personally knows have no problem with it?

Again, you're using rather bad logic. The first thing you learn about ergonomics for mass consumption/production products in Industrial Design Engineering is that you want as many people as possible to be able to use your product and thus adapt your product to them, not them to your product.



I would also like to know which games you've played that are pure first person vehicle shooters. The last one I played was "Super Battletank 2" on SNES. Every tank game since has been a mixture of FPS and 3rd person.

I do hope you're not suggesting this (of course in a refined form):


To be the level of tank gameplay in PS2. (It sadly demonstrates the lack of situational awareness quite well, even then, people switched to map view to get an idea of where enemies were and to not have to see the first person view too long).

I don't play multiplayer games to get a good score, I play them because I love the feeling of teamwork so I don't care if my mates kill enemies for me! As long as I can transport them around and provide support then I'll be happy. Just because I don't care about my k/d doesn't mean my logic is bad.
If a multiplayer game is not enjoyable to play because the gameplay mechanics are poor, certainly in comparison to other games that have a better system for the type of gameplay, then players will leave for those games and take their buddies with them.

If you have tank combat in PS2, it should be refined and well-developed and balanced by default, not deliberately gimped in controls and made semi-unplayable just to compensate another playstyle or unit.
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Old 2012-05-23, 07:15 PM   [Ignore Me] #150
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Re: Ground vehicle driving


FPV with rear view and peripheral video feeds.
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