Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

That is a good point, actually, but I think we should try to keep "ttk" purely to factors related to the attacker's weapon and the target's health/armor. Basically, damage potential vs target health and mitigation; trying to factor in avoidance via movement clouds it up to where we don't even know what we're talking about anymore. Mostly so we can focus TTK on bullet damage, recoil, etc. If we factored trying to shoot targets that are sprinting perpendicular to you into TTK it would mess it up.

Or maybe we could break it out into "moving target TTK" and "non moving target TTK". Note when I say moving I am not implying strafing Quake gameplay at all, simply, moving.

On that point - I once suggested to the BF3 forums that, instead of lowering bullet damage and increasing random deviation, one way to raise survivability(I will say survivability instead of TTK) would be to increase the sprint speed, since I think BF3's sprint is a moderate jog at best. No one supported me on that...note, by the way, I was literally only talking about increasing the sprint speed, and when you're sprinting you can't fire, I was not in any way suggesting you be able to shoot while sprinting or strafing or anything of that nature.

While it would be significantly easier to talk about by removing player velocity we have to keep it in the subject of the thread, which was all about player movement.

I don't have any clue as to why BF3 players would be opposed to such a thing. The last BF game I played was BF2142.

As I have stated before, as a personal opinion I think faster movement speeds are funner in games. But this is coming from Tribes:Ascend where players can move in 3 dimensions and most weapons aren't hitscan. Although someone before said that weapons aren't hitscan as well in PS2, I don't think that is the case.

In Planetside I didn't enjoy ADADAD so whatever system we can come up with that gets rid of that and still keeps combat fun I am game for.

[Stardouser]

The TTK in 2142 was pretty good, so for that game there would be no need to change anything.

But for BF3 this is not so, it's pretty low even when movement is factored in. I think the reason a lot of people resist the suggestion of changes such as that one is that they either have blind faith that the devs made the right decision, or they assume that any requests for changes are just veiled attempts to get the game made easier for them personally, or both. What a lot of people don't realize is that a player may very well have plenty of skill to deal with a low TTK but simply do not enjoy a low TTK. So basically, the same thing is going to happen in PS2, once release hits, a lot of people, when you suggest changes, they're just going to say "adapt". But it's not always a question of adapting, we can adapt, we just don't enjoy the higher TTK. Anyway though, the point is, once something makes it into the game, the people who either blindly support dev decisions or consider all requests for changes to be crying over dying, they will make it very hard to rally enough support to change anything.

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

The TTK in 2142 was pretty good, so for that game there would be no need to change anything.

But for BF3 this is not so, it's pretty low even when movement is factored in. I think the reason a lot of people resist the suggestion of changes such as that one is that they either have blind faith that the devs made the right decision, or they assume that any requests for changes are just veiled attempts to get the game made easier for them personally, or both. What a lot of people don't realize is that a player may very well have plenty of skill to deal with a low TTK but simply do not enjoy a low TTK.

It's kind of hard after the fact to change TTK in any significant way after a game has launched I would think. It might just be a value change in a spreadsheat or a variable but players have already settled in and gotten familiar with weapon balance at that point. Thankfully PS2 is still in alpha and when beta rolls around we should hit the ground running.

Why do people enjoy a lower TTK in BF3 and other games? Why have the devs favored a lower TTK compared to PS1 in PS2? Why should they change the TTK? These are the questions we should be answering.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

It's kind of hard after the fact to change TTK in any significant way after a game has launched I would think. It might just be a value change in a spreadsheat or a variable but players have already settled in and gotten familiar with weapon balance at that point. Thankfully PS2 is still in alpha and when beta rolls around we should hit the ground running.

Why do people enjoy a lower TTK in BF3 and other games? Why have the devs favored a lower TTK compared to PS1 in PS2? Why should they change the TTK? These are the questions we should be answering.

BF3 is copying CoD. And so PS2, by copying BF3, is copying CoD indirectly in some ways.

As to whether or not people are enjoying it in BF3, they may be, but that doesn't mean they prefer it. Too many people are assuming that BF3's sales figures are votes of confidence for BF3's design decisions but it doesn't work that way. I myself bought BF3 expecting to receive a game paced like a Battlefield game but that didn't happen, I expect it's the same for many BF2/2142 vets.

There is a lot of resistance to BF3 on forums and the best defense people can come up with is to claim that the voiceless masses don't agree with what's said on the forums.

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

BF3 is copying CoD. And so PS2, by copying BF3, is copying CoD indirectly in some ways.

As to whether or not people are enjoying it in BF3, they may be, but that doesn't mean they prefer it. Too many people are assuming that BF3's sales figures are votes of confidence for BF3's design decisions but it doesn't work that way. I myself bought BF3 expecting to receive a game paced like a Battlefield game but that didn't happen, I expect it's the same for many BF2/2142 vets.

There is a lot of resistance to BF3 on forums and the best defense people can come up with to claim that the voiceless masses don't agree with what's said on the forums.

I don't think saying "BF3 is copying COD" is an appropriate answer, no offense, but it seems a wee bit biased. There has to be someone that honestly enjoys the lower TTK skillset for reasons other than "thats what COD has", even from other games like CS even. Why do they enjoy that?

And I don't think PS2 is intentionally copying BF3 in this respect, there is simply too many differences in weapons and vehicles between the games to make that statement. They might be blatantly taking somethings but not this.

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

But this is coming from Tribes:Ascend where players can move in 3 dimensions and most weapons aren't hitscan. Although someone before said that weapons aren't hitscan as well in PS2, I don't think that is the case.

Mate, most non-splash weapons in tribes are hitscan, definitly the bullet shooting ones like the assault rifle.

Just to be sure we're talking about the same hitscan, right?
I.e. bullets don't travel, but instantly hit what's under the crosshair.

Edit: CS is kinda the first game timewise that comes to mind with low TTK

[SKYeXile]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

I don't think saying "BF3 is copying COD" is an appropriate answer, no offense, but it seems a wee bit biased. There has to be someone that honestly enjoys the lower TTK skillset for reasons other than "thats what COD has", even from other games like CS even. Why do they enjoy that?

And I don't think PS2 is intentionally copying BF3 in this respect, there is simply too many differences in weapons and vehicles between the games to make that statement. They might be blatantly taking somethings but not this.

weapons in PS2 arnt hitscan. :/

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

Mate, most non-splash weapons in tribes are hitscan, definitly the bullet shooting ones like the assault rifle.

Just to be sure we're talking about the same hitscan, right?
I.e. bullets don't travel, but instantly hit what's under the crosshair.

That may have been true in the earlier beta but that has been changed. The eagle pistol + few others are hitscan now. The assault rifle has been changed to not be hitscan as well as a few others. They are no where near as prevalent as they were from that stage of the game.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

I don't think saying "BF3 is copying COD" is an appropriate answer, no offense, but it seems a wee bit biased. There has to be someone that honestly enjoys the lower TTK skillset for reasons other than "thats what COD has", even from other games like CS even. Why do they enjoy that?

And I don't think PS2 is intentionally copying BF3 in this respect. They might be blatantly taking somethings but not this.

BF3 is copying CoD's pace and TTK, even if they aren't copying individual mechanics.

As for whether PS2 is copying BF3's TTK...well...they're taking squad spawning(not a bad thing, simply evidence of the extent of inspiration), vehicle customizations, the UI(kill messages, etc), at some point after realizing the extent of the similarities, you just have to do the math. The question is will they be able to separate what should and should not be taken from BF3?

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

weapons in PS2 arnt hitscan. :/

? Videos from GDC seemed to indicate that they were. But there may not have been a long enough travel time to tell.

Can you source where the devs have said they weren't? I know weapons like the launchers and rifles are likely not to be, but for your cycler,pulsar, and gauss rifle?

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

As for whether PS2 is copying BF3's TTK...well...they're taking squad spawning(not a bad thing, simply evidence of the extent of inspiration), vehicle customizations, the UI(kill messages, etc), at some point after realizing the extent of the similarities, you just have to do the math. The question is will they be able to separate what should and should not be taken from BF3?

Like I said, they are blatantly stealing somethings (the UI is a big one for me). But it is false to say that since they are stealing some things that they are stealing the shorter TTK as well.

The TTK may be shorter compared to PS1 but we know all the factors that are involved in TTK. Everything from player speed to weapon DPS to shields and armor factor in here. They can't be copying those values from BF3 and putting them in Planetside.

[SKYeXile]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

? Videos from the GDC seemed to indicate that they were. But there may not have been a long enough travel time to tell.

Can you source where the devs have said they weren't?

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...ew.html/page/1

MATT HIGBY: I contacted our Technical Director, Ryan Elam:

PlanetSide 1 was groundbreaking and really ahead of its time when it originally came out in 2003. Being able to track potentially thousands of projectiles per second and evaluate that many players’ movements and aiming was unprecedented. We learned a lot of lessons from the original game. That experience, along with the experience garnered from other MMOs that we have developed over the years has given us some pretty compelling solutions to those original issues. We have a modern physics engine which helps us with thousands of times more collision checks per frame, a fully-realized ballistics system, multiple validation systems, and several “secret sauce” solutions I’m sure we’ll be hinting at in the near future. I’m by no means trivializing the problem, it IS a very tough problem that keeps us on our toes; I’m just saying we got this.

physics = not hitscan.

[SKYeXile]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

? Videos from GDC seemed to indicate that they were. But there may not have been a long enough travel time to tell.

Can you source where the devs have said they weren't? I know weapons like the launchers and rifles are likely not to be, but for your cycler,pulsar, and gauss rifle?

The videos at GDC were all close range, you cant tell if bullets are curving and have a speed at that range. also animations in hitscan games dont mean anything.

Also, hitscan is typically used in serverside games, so calculating is easier, less strain on the server, where planetsides 2 physics and hit detection is done on the client and confirmed on server like BF3's.

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...ew.html/page/1


physics = not hitscan.

physics and fully realized ballistics != not hitscan. Just means instead of calculating the intersection of a straight line between the shooter and target they calculate the intersection of a parabola.

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

? Videos from the GDC seemed to indicate that they were. But there may not have been a long enough travel time to tell.

Can you source where the devs have said they weren't?

Devs said all conventional weapons (bullets) are with bullet drop, only VS will get hitscan(?).

And yeah, under normal closerange to mediumrange you really cant tell hitscan from bulletdrop unless its rediculous bulletdrop.