Drop pods, and the lack of SOI.

[fod]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

I truly get the feeling that a lot of you don't have experience with playing squad spawning games if you think 30 seconds is not enough time for the squad leader to get killed. And you guys keep citing problems with drop pods, I've already said, drop pods are the problem, NOT squad spawning.

i can say as a bf vet that i ALLWAYS though squad spawning was a bad idea in all the battlefield games (especially bf3 and bfbc2 where you can spawn on anyone)

it makes it too easy for attackers to attack because all they need is to get one person at the flag/base for there to be the whole squad to "pop up" there

imo making squad spawning not work within a bases soi would be a good way to balance it

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by infected

i agree there is no reason prone shouldn't be in this game, but as far as 5 minute drop pod cooldown, you have to realize that that's 10 squadmates respawning, not just 1. if it were any lower than 5 minutes then we would basically have no use for vehicles or carefully placed/defended galaxy spawns.

As I said above, the game is a lot faster paced and will allow for aggressive play by defenders. Squad leaders will be dying a lot and that means spawning back at the galaxy. As for no use for vehicles, that's different. It will always be necessary to take a vehicle to the battle in the first place(or else walk 2 miles), but since vehicles can't spawn from the deployed Galaxy, THAT is what will curtail vehicle usage. Who is going to constantly respawn back at vehicle towers or main bases to pull vehicles every time they die except dedicated tank drivers or aircraft pilots? Infantry players will respawn at the Galaxy, and, I've been playing PS1 a lot lately, and despite the upsurge in population, I don't see people bringing Galaxies or jugg/deliver/etc to the front line to ferry people from towers/AMSs to the battle. And since they are not doing that, how does squad spawning stabilizing the pace for infantry players make vehicles less useful?

Originally Posted by fod

i can say as a bf vet that i ALLWAYS though squad spawning was a bad idea in all the battlefield games (especially bf3 and bfbc2 where you can spawn on anyone)

it makes it too easy for attackers to attack because all they need is to get one person at the flag/base for there to be the whole squad to "pop up" there

imo making squad spawning not work within a bases soi would be a good way to balance it

Yes, the SOI idea would make it work. Long cooldown however is destructive. With that said though, in BF2, I have always observed that, the squad leader being the only one who can let people spawn, the good SLs ALWAYS hangs back a bit because if he doesn't, he dies, and everyone walks back(Funny enough, this long walkback is going to happen by default in PS2 due to the 5 minute cooldown on squad spawning.). Although at the same time, I've never seen the "whole squad pop up there" be overpowered. I just haven't. But there's an additional reason for that, too : BF flags have a 2 tiered capture process- first they go neutral, then they turn to the other side. That often gives enough warning to come in and wipe the flag.

[infected]

Originally Posted by fod

i can say as a bf vet that i ALLWAYS though squad spawning was a bad idea in all the battlefield games (especially bf3 and bfbc2 where you can spawn on anyone)

it makes it too easy for attackers to attack because all they need is to get one person at the flag/base for there to be the whole squad to "pop up" there

imo making squad spawning not work within a bases soi would be a good way to balance it

agreed. it is a lazy design.

and in ps2 it will be very easily and heavily exploited. as i described: get a 100 person outfit to fill a single sunderer or galaxy up with 10/100. each of those 10 in the vehicle are in separate squads of 10. then when they get to where they want to deploy the other 90 hit the deploy button and everyone drops in and 10 becomes 100. at that point it doesn't even matter if there's a 5 minute cooldown on the ability. how are you going to defend against that? that's why there needs to be a soi so drop pods don't become the cheese tactic, making the game a zerg joke.

[Shade Millith]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

And my entire point has been that it's wrong to be biased against squad spawning being the primary respawn method. Especially since they can't possibly have tested it in a full 2000 player server condition yet. It's bad enough players are automatically biased and preconceived against it without testing, it's all the more bad when the professionals, SOE, are either biased against it themselves, or are caving in to who are.

As someone who played PS1 for a long time, I can tell you right now, PS1 would have been terrible if you could spawn ontop of an enemy base.

It would have completely negate the courtyard defense.

There's a reason 12-24 man galaxy drops were dangerous, because they could bypass so many defenses. But they were balanced by the fact that you had forewarning it was coming. The stonking massive ship slowly making it's way over the base. They took time and effort to setup.

Squad spawning does NOT take time and effort. It is something that can be done easily, and completely negates the need for the galaxy as a troop transport.

Already the maps are designed to be COD run and gun fests. We don't need to take this further into negating the home advantage.


And as a BF2-3 organized clan player, I can tell you it WILL be abused in this fashion. Hell, nearly every strategy revolved around using squad spawning.

[MonsterBone]

Wazza

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by infected

agreed. it is a lazy design.

and in ps2 it will be very easily and heavily exploited. as i described: get a 100 person outfit to fill a single sunderer or galaxy up with 10/100. each of those 10 in the vehicle are in separate squads of 10. then when they get to where they want to deploy the other 90 hit the deploy button and everyone drops in and 10 becomes 100. at that point it doesn't even matter if there's a 5 minute cooldown on the ability. how are you going to defend against that? that's why there needs to be a soi so drop pods don't become the cheese tactic, making the game a zerg joke.

If you can't defend against 1 galaxy with 12 guys in it, how are you going to defend against 10 galaxies with a total of 120? Funny you talk about zerging when what you're suggesting fits the definition of zerg even more closely.

Originally Posted by Shade Millith

There's a reason 12-24 man galaxy drops were dangerous, because they could bypass so many defenses. But they were balanced by the fact that you had forewarning it was coming. The stonking massive ship slowly making it's way over the base. They took time and effort to setup.

Exactly what kind of time frames are we talking about here? Just how long does it take a Galaxy to fly from a warpgate to a base? I can't believe it takes long enough to actually give sufficient warning to set up a defense, especially since you don't know exactly where it's going.

Originally Posted by Shade Millith

And as a BF2-3 organized clan player, I can tell you it WILL be abused in this fashion. Hell, nearly every strategy revolved around using squad spawning.

My experience is BF2 is that the best way to take a flag is to drive in with multiple vehicles, simultaneously, to cover the spawn points while you turn the flag ownership over, otherwise you get blasted by defenders coming out of the woodwork. Once you get your vehicles shot out from under you, or if you didn't bring any, you're going to have a bit of a bad time.

Of course, my biggest BF2 map was mashtuur, where the more important flags were the gas stations, and double blocking the spawns with vodniks was pretty much standard, if you didn't do it, squad spawning will just cause you to die to the defenders a lot before you get wiped.

[infected]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

If you can't defend against 1 galaxy with 12 guys in it, how are you going to defend against 10 galaxies with a total of 120? Funny you talk about zerging when what you're suggesting fits the definition of zerg even more closely.

dude. a galaxy is not supposed to hold 100 people. that's the point. with this exploit, you can effectively turn 1 galaxy into a 100+ man army. that is fucked up.

the point is 10 galaxies coming in very slowly is something you can see approaching (and the galaxies cost resources to spawn).

opposed to a single exploit galaxy with 10 members from 10 different squads ready and waiting to call in 100 more troopers from the drop pod menu... that is free and can be done every 5 minutes. that's broken. period.

if you don't think this will be the most used tactic in all the big outfits, you don't know much about competitive video gamers.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by infected

dude. a galaxy is not supposed to hold 100 people. that's the point. with this exploit, you can effectively turn 1 galaxy into a 100+ man army. that is fucked up.

the point is 10 galaxies coming in very slowly is something you can see approaching (and the galaxies cost resources to spawn).

opposed to a single exploit galaxy with 10 members from 10 different squads ready and waiting to call in 100 more troopers from the drop pod menu... that is free and can be done every 5 minutes. that's broken. period.

if you don't think this will be the most used tactic in all the big outfits, you don't know much about competitive video gamers.

What I'm saying is, if your defensive force is so small that they can't shoot down one Galaxy, what are you going to do against 10?

And remember, I am NOT in any way arguing against a sphere of influence that will prevent what you are talking about. If you want the SOI to prevent people from doing this and forcing them to all spawn 100 meters or more away outside the base and get picked off as they walk in, that's fine with me. Everything I have been saying has been about the cooldown, I am not fighting you on the SOI idea.

[Karrade]

Squad spawning anywhere (especially close to control points) as it stands penalises anyone defending. You might as well move to attacking, in the open layouts, with easy spawning, they look very difficult to defend. We might as well call it what it is, easy/chaotic spawning.

I am speaking about organised outfits, leave a few people to mop up control points, and the rest, would you honestly not hit an open target (which is what every base is) - with an easy spawn to get right next to their CC any time a SL lives long enough to make it that far?

Why bother leaving good bodies behind to defend, beyond a few to make their life difficult. - I am not speaking about the zerg that will be behind anyway, I am speaking about the organised/skilled players, who will be better of working to what the game promotes - attacking.

Now, attacking is fine, as long as people realise that is what this set up promotes, defending appears (in the current base layouts + respawning anywhere as we've seen) largely pointless if the enemy get in the actual base itself. - Again I am not speaking about the zerg that will be where the zerg will be (which SOE have catered for well), I am speaking as a player who will be in an outfit that plays to the games strengths shown in organised play.

Whoever suggested highlighting the SL, I agree, he should be very visible via the hud, so ppl know who to take out.

[infected]

Originally Posted by Charred

Of course the defenders can spawn in the base... It's supposed to be harder for the attackers than the defenders, you know?

well, as i can see the design of that zevran amp station in higby's twitch video, that "base" has 6 objectives. 3 of which are outside the walls. these 3 outside are effectively free spawn points for assaulters because they will be far easier to capture. this will put the defenders in a fallback position behind the walls to defend the remaining 3 flags. then they have to defend from all sides, the 3 outer flags are all good spawn points for attackers to launch base of operations and vehicles spawns, and max units.

so yeah, the travel time won't be as much as you think. think how quickly and closely the spawn points were for assault in the e3 footage. this is the same thing. very close and fast. the e3 footage had a base wit 3 objectives and 3 assault spawnpoints, effectively the same layout and distance as 6 total points in higby's footage.

Originally Posted by Stardouser

And remember, I am NOT in any way arguing against a sphere of influence that will prevent what you are talking about. If you want the SOI to prevent people from doing this and forcing them to all spawn 100 meters or more away outside the base and get picked off as they walk in, that's fine with me. Everything I have been saying has been about the cooldown, I am not fighting you on the SOI idea.

well then here's the point you don't quite get. if the soi is 100 meters, and the closest assault spawn point is 100 meters, then why do you want to spawn on your squad if they are both the same distance out from the base?

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Karrade

Whoever suggested highlighting the SL, I agree, he should be very visible via the hud, so ppl know who to take out.

BF3 does this and it's an unacceptable casualization. You talk about squad spawning being easy but then suggest something like that to make it easy for the other team? And how are you going to balance such an easy mode casualization as this? Just by being the squad leader you walk around with a 3D spot on you?

Originally Posted by infected

well then here's the point you don't quite get. if the soi is 100 meters, and the closest assault spawn point is 100 meters, then why do you want to spawn on your squad if they are both the same distance out from the base?

Is every battle going to be a base siege? Some will take place away from bases.

Also, what in the world makes you think the galaxies are going to be deployed only 100 meters away? 100 meters is a long run for infantry(especially when you consider that that's 100 meters just to break the plane of the base f perimeter) but it's well within range of the base's turrets to blow your galaxy away. I rather think Galaxies are more likely to placed considerably further away than that.

[Karrade]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

BF3 does this and it's an unacceptable casualization. You talk about squad spawning being easy but then suggest something like that to make it easy for the other team? And how are you going to balance such an easy mode casualization as this? Just by being the squad leader you walk around with a 3D spot on you?

Yes, otherwise with no SOI the squad spawn system makes attacking far too favorable for balanced play.

There is no need to balance it for the other (defending) team, defending is already unbalanced against their favour via the open layouts, where you can spawn anywhere.

Given even a very basic tactical understanding, surely you can see defending is largely hindered having an open base, + the ability to spawn anywhere within it, this is surely common sense? So the question becomes, would you commit time and effort to defend, or would you commit time and effort to attack such an open setup.

Remember you only need to get ONE SL in range.

[infected]

let's just wait for the beta. get a few 1000 players in there to put these features or lack thereof to the test and the feedback will be overwhelming if something is just breaking the flow of the game.

personally i predict that defending bases will be absolutely impossible (just like it was impossible to hold them at e3) until some major changes are put in effect.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Karrade

Yes, otherwise with no SOI the squad spawn system makes attacking far too favorable for balanced play.

There is no need to balance it for the other team, defending is already unbalanced via the open layouts, where you can spawn anywhere.

Given even a very basic tactical understanding, surely you can see defending is largely hindered having an open base, + the ability to spawn anywhere within it, this is surely common sense? So the question becomes, would you commit time and effort to defend, or would you commit time and effort to attack such an open setup.

I see a lot of people talking about defending being unbalanced. Frankly, I think it's inappropriate to try and boil that down to just squad spawning, as if that were the only factor affecting matters on either side. Defenders are going to get their own advantages, including stupid jump pads.

And if you are really suggesting that squad leaders should run around with a permanent 3D spot, I don't even know what to say about something so crazy. This game isn't going to all about base sieges you know, you're going to see squads coming with no hope for stealth in the entire 64 square kilometers of the map.

Originally Posted by infected

let's just wait for the beta. get a few 1000 players in there to put these features or lack thereof to the test and the feedback will be overwhelming if something is just breaking the flow of the game.

personally i predict that defending bases will be absolutely impossible (just like it was impossible to hold them at e3) until some major changes are put in effect.

Since so many people are talking about how hard it will be to defend bases, I hope the first thing anyone does when beta gets to this point, is perform an objective analysis of defender vs attacker pros and cons. Trying to make a blanket statement that squad spawning, all by itself, makes defense pointless, seems like too much of a sweeping generalization.

[Karrade]

Originally Posted by infected

let's just wait for the beta. get a few 1000 players in there to put these features or lack thereof to the test and the feedback will be overwhelming if something is just breaking the flow of the game.

personally i predict that defending bases will be absolutely impossible (just like it was impossible to hold them at e3) until some major changes are put in effect.

This will be likely but be MUCH more likely when an outfit plays to the strengths and attacks, will outfits be in the beta?

Originally Posted by Stardouser

I see a lot of people talking about defending being unbalanced. Frankly, I think it's inappropriate to try and boil that down to just squad spawning, as if that were the only factor affecting matters on either side. Defenders are going to get their own advantages, including stupid jump pads.

And if you are really suggesting that squad leaders should run around with a permanent 3D spot, I don't even know what to say about something so crazy. This game isn't going to all about base sieges you know, you're going to see squads coming with no hope for stealth in the entire 64 square kilometers of the map.

I didn't just quote that, I quoted open layouts many times.

No you are not, that is the point, if you are an outfit, you are going to do all you can to get that SL in range of capping. Sure the map sounds fun but when the novelty wears off, you'll see people heading for the base all the time!

With SOI you can't do that, without you can - simple!

-edit

SL's will be the new infils!
Cloakers that can spawn people anywhere (I hope that has been nerfed already )