Warning, very unpopular opinion! Why kill-cam desperately needs to return

[Taramafor]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Take the risk that people come not after you. This is actually a viable risk to take as the game is generally too fluid, hectic and fast paced for people to go on a revenge mission.

Soo... You want kill cam so people can get revenge?

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Anticipate people taking revenge on you and have your AP mines planted along the route to your spot. Using the same kill-cam against your enemy "exploiting" it and instead killing him twice can be a very rewarding tactic.

Yep. Revenge. And baiting. Using kill cam. I love how you try to use logic to state killcam can avoid doing this yet claim outright it's what you want from it.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Kill-cam did not "ruin" COD, nor did it "ruin" BF and there's really no reason to assume it will "ruin" PS 2.

Actually, it did. It was put in, didn't work, then taken out. No one wanted it.

[CrankyTRex]

Forgive me for cherry picking some of your response, but this thread is long enough as it is.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

I was actually thinking exactly the same thing about all these flawed anti kill-cam sentiments that so far have all been counter-argued.

There's a difference between countering an argument and simply refusing to accept it as true.

As numerous posters have demonstrated, the kill cams offer far more benefits to people who already know the game than to those who don't, so if your goal is to close the skill gap, then a kill cam is clearly not the solution.

As I pointed out in my earlier post, the skill gap problem isn't about not knowing where you were killed from, but the mechanics that not only encourage, but actually require, farming which in turn make death too fast and frequent to give new players some time to look around and learn their way.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

In the end btw it's not about a kill-cam feature. You can actually implement kill-cam in such a way that it would not give away your exact position at all, which would instantly kill 90% of all the rage against it in this topic.

There's absolutely no point to it if it doesn't give away the position of the killer. We already have a screen that tells you who and what killed you, the only point of a kill cam is to show you where they were at the time.

This is how it's clear you've lost the argument, because you're arguing you don't need the thing you want.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Instead they come up with all kinds of flawed arguments like "we had to learn it the hard way too", "look it up if you want to improve", "ask others to get better", "we don't need no dumbing down for COD kiddies".

Only flawed in their lack of tact, if anything. The best way to learn your way in a game like this is not a kill cam, but to play the game, watch videos of other people playing the game, and get advice from people who do know the game.

[Ertwin]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Kill-cam "eliminating this tactical game play altogether" is simply not true. You can still camp in your hidey hole but now you have a few tactical options to consider:

1. Take the risk that people come not after you. This is actually a viable risk to take as the game is generally too fluid, hectic and fast paced for people to go on a revenge mission. By the time your enemy has respawned and moved himself to your position, good chances are the tactical situation has already drastically changed to make such a mission viable in the first place.
2. Anticipate people taking revenge on you and have your AP mines planted along the route to your spot. Using the same kill-cam against your enemy "exploiting" it and instead killing him twice can be a very rewarding tactic.
3. Relocate to have a fire line on your last position, again to use kill-cam as a tactic, or just to re-engage is just an easy thing to do in this game. No matter how you look at it, the scale of this game is so big that you always have a different camping spot easily available to you, even in cramped tower fights.

Point 1: It's not just the person you killed you have to worry about. There is in game voice messaging, so any time you kill anyone with kill cam enabled, you can safely assume everyone in the area knows your position. People will hunt down infiltrators like it's an Olympic sport.

Point 2: AP mines are a limited resource, and not really a good counter when you're spotted.

Point 3: You said "relocate" when the person you're talking to specifically said that moving isn't a viable option...

[tricome]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

This exactly illustrates why the whole kill-cam discussion has deteriorated over the years in some epeen crap.

It's precisely this stunning arrogance and hardcore gamer elitism that has rotten not only this but other communities as well. No matter how you look at it, COD and BF are great multi-player fps series that have become popular for a very good reason. Bashing it because it make you feel more superior is telling more about you than about these games.
Kill-cam did not "ruin" COD, nor did it "ruin" BF and there's really no reason to assume it will "ruin" PS 2.

Thats your opinion which your entitled to.

However I disagree and say killcam did ruin both of those games and now there nothing more than kiddie shooters dumbed into oblivion to appeal to the masses.

You won't change my opinion no matter what wall of text you post.

[tricome]

No it's for kiddie shooters like cod and bf lets just keep it there. OP you want a killcam then play cod or bf stop trying to dumb PS2 down to their level.

It's just something new players will have to learn like we ALL did. I know thats a dirty word for you instant action, add running n gunning cod types but there you have it.

[Blynd]

You will never get the community to back kill cams because they are a lazy way of playing you dont really learn anything about the game from them just where the guy who killed you is.

[Muldoon]

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

[Blynd]

Originally Posted by Muldoon

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

If that were the case then restricting them for BR1-5 would be enough to get people to get the hang of things any further use is plain game breaking.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Muldoon

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

I agree that they are indeed, like both you and Rolph state, very good tools for teaching new players how to play, although I still don't want them in the game "permanently". I would really like to see you guys work out something that helps improve the new player experience as I keep seeing new players who just get killed over and over without really knowing where from (Mostly because I'm a right camping bastard). I would be fine with seeing something along the lines of what Blynd, and maybe others, suggested.
Is this something you guys have been discussing around the office?

[Muldoon]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

Is this something you guys have been discussing around the office?

Not since beta.

[Rolfski]

Originally Posted by Muldoon

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

We actually had quite some useful suggestions throughout this topic to get around the issues these hardcore vets have, like making kill-cam available for newer players only.

Problem so far is that:

• People don't seem to care that much, at least in this forum, about improving the new player experience. Personally, I see this learn-it-the-hard-way-or-take-the-high-way mentality as one of it's biggest threats for the long-term survival of PS 2. An Eve Online-like skill wall just won't work for a relatively light weight game as PS2 imo.
• Many hardcore players are just blind raging spastic and plain allergic for any form of kill-cam. The amount of non-constructive, downright hostile and borderline insulting comments I so far have had to be put up with in this discussion (mind you, this is supposed to be a "friendly" and "mature" community), should be a good indicator for any SOE announcement on a kill-cam feature.

So as much as I agree with you for it being a potentially excellent learning tool, I also don't expect SOE to have the balls for it to reconsider it.
Unless you get back-up from the hardcore community first, that is.

What I do hope to get out of this discussion though, is some openness and willingness for tools & mechanics that help close the ever-growing skill gap somewhat for newer and casual players.

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

[LIST][*]People don't seem to care that much, at least in this forum,
Bullshit. Have you ever visited the new player questions forum? A lot of help there. Currently there are several threads around the same age as this one ABOUT helping new player. Because we think kill cam is crap, has nothing to do with how I feel about helping new players, nor most of the people in this thread.[*]Many hardcore players are just blind raging spastic and plain allergic for any form of kill-cam. The amount of non-constructive, downright hostile and borderline insulting comments I so far have had to be put up with in this discussion (mind you, this is supposed to be a "friendly" and "mature" community), should be a good indicator for any SOE announcement on a kill-cam feature.[/LIST
Bullshit again. There has hardly been any blind rage nor that much insult considering your inability to actually have a point through this whole mess. I've played games with them, I just don't like them, I have reasons for not wanting it in this game, which i've listed repeatedly. The best youve been able to come back with is to tell me i'm wrong? WTF At this point you I think you ARE trolling for insults to make yourself feel better congrats for that, you've succeeded. I just haven't typed 90% of what i've wanted to say when it comes to that.

I can't believe I keep coming back to this thread.

[Ertwin]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Problem so far is that:

The problem so far is that every time anyone suggests a solution that isn't kill cam, you dismiss it out of hand. It is pretty clear that kill cam isn't an acceptable solution to any of the problems you've brought up, so start looking for other solutions rather than flogging the meat off the dead horse.

[Lucidius]

Originally Posted by Muldoon

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

Why not make them exclusively available to low BR characters or players with new SOE/PS2 accounts?

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by Lucidius

Why not make them exclusively available to low BR characters or players with new SOE/PS2 accounts?

Because then the foot is in the door for it to be pushed further. Why invent a game mechanic that will only make it harder for new players to learn the game and puts them right back where they started when they 'graduate'.