What class should carry ammo packs?

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Pyreal

Medic.

Why?

To make a true Support class by combining Medic and Resupply.

The Medic's MAIN focus on the battlefield is supporting their team.
The HA's MAIN focus is Assault.
The Engineer's MAIN focus is vehicle care and/or Defense.

A Medic is already playing with a goal of supporting his teammates, while the HA's goal is not.
A Medic is also on the front lines with the troopers, where Ammo and Health are needed the most.
An Engineer (in a support capacity) is more likely to be in a rear position with the vehicles (in a offensive situation). Most Engineers will be drivers/pilots and not serving in a support role.


Benefit to Support Players:

Dedicated Support classes are generally the least played classes. Most people don't want to help their teammates from a background position, they want to 'blow stuff up'.

This creates a class for those players who gravitate towards a support role, but may find themselves torn between Resupply and Medic. Combining these features will give this new Support class real worth on the battlefield

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

So I will get a class that will allow me to heal myself AND resupply myself?

Sign me up, need to push my KDR.

This (Kapautz quote) was the main concern that I had why I didn't support Medic for this role more seriously at the start and concentrated on HA tbh. Since the start of the thread I also realized that Engineer would be a bad choice even though I was pro them at the start. If you consider that healing is not that much important since there is "auto-heal" right now only although great feat Medics have in their pack is reviving players.

If we go by the notion that support class should have AP then it's definitely the Medic. Only other support class Engineer has a bunch more of stuff to do. They repair vehicles what is equal to healing, have turrets, mines, covers and who know what more in their bags. Adding ammo packs on top of all that would be too much imo.

Also if you consider that Engineer is the most suitable class for battle vehicles (most are two-seaters) they will make most of the population there (at least one guy 50%, and many dedicated single seaters will be Engies as well if the wish to repair their vehicle on their own), but if they are need on front lines that means that any good squad would need at least 2 Engies with them for Ammo supply thus making that class having to be the most abundant on the field at any given moment (2/10 or 20% what is more than 1/6 or 18%, And I think Engies should make less than 10% population on the direct front lines).

My final judgement - no to Super-Engies! MOAR power to the MEDIKZ!

As for the combat classes if any of them should have AP I still support HAs for that role.

[Xyntech]

Well I had voted for engineer, and I still don't think that's a bad place to have it, but I like what Malorn said about MAXes. I don't think it would have been such a horrible thing if those MAXes who ran out of ammo in the E3 footage had been able to place some ammo and start shooting again. As long as the ammo drops are a resource that can be depleted, I think it would be balanced just fine.

It would be a slight nod back to PS1 as well, with MAXes carrying extra supplies such as medic and engi tool refills.

[NewSith]

I quote myself from the other thread.

Originally Posted by NewSith

I would actually love to see Ammo Packs for *tudum* MEDICS! I mean with all the info we have (as in "medics only own close range weaponry") it really seems as if medic is about to become 90% support class. So why not give medics an ability to give people some candy after healing them?

PS: Bear in mind that I was too lazy to read through any post other than OP, even the one above mine, so sorry if I missed anything.

Originally Posted by NewSith

No, what I mean is Ammo Boxes exclusively to a medic, along with his healgun. Why? Because in theory medics are the last line in the class offense line.

Here's the elaboration top = front:

• MAX, Heavy Assault - hard hitting tough vanguard. Giving them ammo is not exactly a wise idea, because they're not designed for support, though they can drop ammo, because they'll be the first to enter fights, people will pick their ammo after them. Problem is - they'll be only throwing ammo for themselves, not the team.
• Engineer - balanced offensive and defensive capabilities, alongside with being a pilot class basically.
• Medic - Healer class, no matter how you look at it. If the CQB info about them is still correct, of course. If not, they go in line with Engies.
• Infiltrator, Light Assault - two standalone classes, that are VERY bad choice for an ammo pack, because they will always be anywhere, BUT in the mob.

As you can see - the best choice for an ammo pack is either a medic or an engie. Assault can have it, but people playing HA are rarely people realising that they also have to support their teammates. Same thing you can see with support class in BF3, that has default LMG being more effective than assault rifles even at long range. The worst choice is obviously infil and LA, and I said why above.

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Xyntech

Well I had voted for engineer, and I still don't think that's a bad place to have it, but I like what Malorn said about MAXes. I don't think it would have been such a horrible thing if those MAXes who ran out of ammo in the E3 footage had been able to place some ammo and start shooting again. As long as the ammo drops are a resource that can be depleted, I think it would be balanced just fine.

It would be a slight nod back to PS1 as well, with MAXes carrying extra supplies such as medic and engi tool refills.

I must say I don't see the reasoning behind the MAX doing this role especially when you compare it to HA class - MAX probably has much more firepower, quite bigger ammo pool, significantly more HP and is less mobile. All the problems that are mentioned for HA being the AP carrier are multiplied in case of MAX unit. Honestly why on Earth would someone want a MAX to do this role?

[GuyFawkes]

In end decided to go with engineer but I'd be happy with 'all' or 'none' to be added to the list .
Engineer just seems to fit . He/she's the one most likely to be there repairing Maxes and HA in the thick of . It's a balancing factor against just solo steamrolling maxes or HA and needing that squishy support with you for another reason. Light assault can always ping pong around to find an engineer , but not the other way around.
Maybe they let medics drop med packs around too .

[IMMentat]

Originally Posted by Electrofreak

Why in god's name do half the people in this thread think that Assault classes should be used in a support role?!


There are defined support classes, they are the ones that should be providing support. Other classes, particularly the Assault classes, should be reliant upon them. This fosters good teamplay.

Personally i think that way exactly because of the backwards thinking you followed the question with.

If half the classes are dedicated non-support then loads of players will shrug off support as "not my job" screwing over anyone thats willing to help but doesn't want to permenantly wipe the arse of some ungrateful SoB running and gunning and moaning about the lack of "support" as he runs face on into more enemies (Tribes Ascend - Technician players, my heart goes out to you).
Give everyone a small ability to help out their team/faction and they are better prepared to help out in more meaningful ways later. Like swapping class for a few minutes when in a pinch.

To the general population.
OTOH a lot of people seem hung up on the "infinite ammo" theory.
Who said anything about packs being unlimited?
For all we know that are 3 uses per spawn and the LA could have a fairly small ammo pool, 3 selfish ammo packs could only mean double what a HA would usually carry(for a bigegr gun), not that big a deal.

Also remember that the ENGINEERS will carry LIMITED number of ACE BLUEPRINTS and they will (probably) have access to A DISPENSER, not ammo-packs, so we may as well stop the drop-pack consideration for them (and modify the OP for anyone new to the argument), I don't see them getting a second function that replicates what they already have.
As for the "too much to do" argument I simply stare blankly and wonder what you are smoking, mines are not used once the enemy can shoot you while laying them, turrets take 1-2 seconds to drop, shields we have not seen yet, repairs shouldn't be a 24/7 occupation (only 1 class of 6 will be in need of these services). That leaves what? supressive fire and protecting the medics/deployables.

MEDICS could have 1-2 packs AS WELL as the LA keeping them (though what they would replace them with I do not know), probably hit warfront ammo saturation at this point.

Just because players have the tools it doesn't mean they can use all the tools all the time. We know this to be the case.

[Electrofreak]

Originally Posted by IMMentat

Personally i think that way exactly because of the backwards thinking you followed the question with.

If half the classes are dedicated non-support then loads of players will shrug off support as "not my job" screwing over anyone thats willing to help but doesn't want to permenantly wipe the arse of some ungrateful SoB running and gunning and moaning about the lack of "support" as he runs face on into more enemies (Tribes Ascend - Technician players, my heart goes out to you).
Give everyone a small ability to help out their team/faction and they are better prepared to help out in more meaningful ways later. Like swapping class for a few minutes when in a pinch.


OTOH a lot of people seem hung up on the "infinite ammo" theory.
Who said anything about packs being unlimited?
For all we know that are 3 uses per spawn and the LA could have a fairly small ammo pool, 3 selfish ammo packs could only mean double what a HA would usually carry(for a bigegr gun), not that big a deal.

Also remember that the ENGINEERS will carry LIMITED number of ACE BLUEPRINTS and they will (probably) have access to A DISPENSER, not ammo-packs, so we may as well stop the drop-pack consideration for them (and modify the OP for anyone new to the argument), I don't see them getting a second function that replicates what they already have.
As for the "too much to do" argument I simply stare blankly and wonder what you are smoking, mines are not used once the enemy can shoot you while laying them, turrets take 1-2 seconds to drop, shields we have not seen yet, repairs shouldn't be a 24/7 occupation (only 1 class of 6 will be in need of these services). That leaves what? supressive fire and protecting the medics/deployables.

MEDICS could have 1-2 packs AS WELL as the LA keeping them (though what they would replace them with I do not know), probably hit warfront ammo saturation at this point.

Just because players have the tools it doesn't mean they can use all the tools all the time. We know this to be the case.

It's hardly backwards thinking, it's about the role they are designed to play.

LA are virtually worthless indoors; they need room for maneuverability in combat. That's what they're designed for and that's what they excel at. If you make them ammo resuppliers, the role does not synergize with their outdoor shock trooper role. They are going to be up on the walltop fighting defenders or jumping onto rooftops to try to get a better vantage point, not following the heavy ammo-use classes like HA and MAX into the base to resupply them.

Suddenly LA has to choose between the role they were designed for and a secondary role that forces them to be less effective.

Do you think the majority of players are going to play LA because they can jetpack around the battlefield, or because they can lay ammo crates? And when those two roles conflict with one another, which role are they going to pick? I think we both know the answer to that.

For the record, I NEVER said Engineers have too much to do. It makes perfect sense for them to provide ammo resupply in some form.

[Satexios]

Remove ammo packs, replace with engineer supply terminal cert = win.

At least in my humble opinion.

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by Knightwyvern

Firstly, people that have more ammo, tend to use more ammo.

Of course they are gonna use more ammo, BECAUSE they have more from the start.

Originally Posted by Knightwyvern

Secondly, you're also forgetting the fact that LMG are only one of 3 weapons that the HA class uses; the other two being the actual Heavy Assault weapons (which will most likely have pretty small magazines) and AV/AA weapons.

It's either LMG+AV or HA, so I'd recon pretty even amounts of ammo for both.

And I highly doubt the MCG having a small magazine.

Originally Posted by Knightwyvern

We all know how fast those tend to run out.

Uh, no, actually I don't know, enlighten me please.

What I do know from watching the stream is that, compared to the HA, LAs and Engineers ran out of ammo more frequently, because there was a distinct difference in ammo when one has 20-40 rounds per mag and the other has 75-100.

[IMMentat]

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

What I do know from watching the stream is that, compared to the HA, LAs and Engineers ran out of ammo more frequently, because there was a distinct difference in ammo when one has 20-40 rounds per mag and the other has 75-100.

It is all down to spare ammo capacity rate of fire and who will be the meatshield. HA will have more AI ammo in-gun, maybe even more ammo spare.
But once the team-play starts they will also be the players at the frontline laying down the most bullets due to seeing more targets more often.

MAX suits will be behind or ahead of the HA depending on the nature of the fight, up front if needed to breach an area, supressive fire and flank control if in a more open area (due to the slower walk speed and more specialised weapon choices).
LA will be somewhere on a perch looking for weak/vunerable/support targets and supressing over aggressive enemies.
INFILTRATORS will be wherever they can get the range to aim (thatever weapon they have equipped) effectively.
MEDIC/ENGY players will be on the second line of assault, patching folks up, covering the flanks and keeping the team on its feet. So mixing up gunplay with support abilities.


I still consider MAX, Medic and LA to have valid reasons to carry limited supply ammo drops, but i can only think of a tweaked LA as having valid cause to have the ability. Engineer already getting the dispenser to drop-packs are a moot point there.

The MAX probably has the least cause for an ammo pack due to being a specialist target shredder, a boosted ammo pool on a max would have the most dangerous impace, even with only 1 ammo pack available between visits to a terminal.
The Medic would have a tough time choosing between ammo packs and one of the medic only ability (such as heal aura/grenades/med-app???)
With LA. You could drop their total spare ammo ammount, limit the number of packs available and then either LA need to stay within retreat/resupply distance of a friendly terminal/engineer to refresh packs or will have only a limited free-play time while acting independantly (win win IMO).

Inf shouldn't be calling attention to themselves.
HA have massive combat flexibility and sizable ammo pools (cept on the AV weapons), portable ammo packs would just let them find a quiet spot and farm till they are spent out (of ammo) 1-3 times over.

[Khellendros]

My choice doesn't exist on that poll: none.

Engys have dispensers or w/e they're called. That ought to be enough.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by Khellendros

My choice doesn't exist on that poll: none.

Engys have dispensers or w/e they're called. That ought to be enough.

There's no engi dispensers. Not yet anyway.

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by Malorn

There's no engi dispensers. Not yet anyway.

That Khellendros is a spah!

[super pretendo]

Heavy Assault or engineer.

[Nolerhn]

I haven't read through most of this thread. But I would like to add that I plan on playing both LA and engy's. In my humble opinion, I feel the ammo crate should stick with LA, since they're the most mobile class.

The way I personally envision playing the LA class, is to jump on top of structures and attack from strange angles that the enemy has a difficult time dealing with, but, when my squad calls for ammo, I'm not too far away and can jump back to where they are and resupply them.

It's difficult to explain to be honest. I'm a very support oriented person, if I were playing LA, I wouldn't want to be too far from my squad. Say they were trying to breach into the front entrance of a base, I may jump near to the rooftops/scaffolding/etc VERY near the front entrance and attack from the high ground there. BUT, when my squad needs ammo, I'm there, not very far away, to provide them with the support necessary to continue to fight.

I understand people's worries about lone wolves camping. But in all honesty, in a game where a battle could very literally be comprised of hundreds of players, just how survivable could one lone wolf be on the top of a structure resupplying himself?

As for myself wanting to play the engineer class, I can honestly say (the way I envision playing) if I'm not fortifying a position, then I'm in a vehicle. I don't see myself as an engy on the front lines dropping an ammo crate when I have all sorts of other ACE blueprints to play with.