IMO KillCam killing the Game

[WaryWizard]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

I'm still undecided. Honestly I really don't see what the big deal is unless you're camping.

Is there really such a thing as a "camper" in a game of this scale?

If you are sitting there shooting enemies, could that really be considered camping? Isn't camping more along the lines of waiting in one spot you KNOW the enemy will come from and kill them easily? That just seems like the defender's tactics. So killcam will only be a problem if you are defending. I'm sure that will NEVER happen in planet side 2.

The killcam makes defending too hard. They already know pretty much where you are. You don't need to make it easier. We don't want a dossier of the guy that killed us every time we died.


I find killcams utterly useless. I never learned anything from them. Anything I could have learned I knew the moment I was shot at or the moment I died.
exg: I should have turned right instead of left, I need to pay more attention to objects like bushes,
I need to NOT miss with the fucking sniper rifle.

[Lord Cosine]

PS post-death cam
Pros:
-Allows players to notice adv.Medics.
-Gives players a chance to consider their next move.
-Does not compromise cloakers /snipers / Ordinance.
Cons:
-Disadvantageous to Defenders when corpse is in LoS.
-Does not help new players figure out what they did wrong.
-Can be boring (especially to new players) to stare at your dead body, or the map while waiting on respawn/rez.
-Gives away troop locations around the body


Showing who killed you last with what kind of shot.
Pros:
-Helps new players learn what they did wrong and how to improve (to what extent I'm not certain).
-Interesting to watch.
-Helps exposing annoying f2p hackers.
-More familiar for console players.
Cons:
-Disadvantageous to Defenders whenever an enemy is killed, as it gives away defending troop locations.
-Exposes enemy sniper/cloaker/ordinance locations.
-May obscure vision of nearby medic's attempts to rez player.


Showing what you did before you died
Pros:
-Helps new players learn what they did wrong and how to improve (to what extent I'm not certain). This probably is more helpful to new players than either of the other kill cams.
-Interesting to watch.
-Does not relay any current enemy troop locations.
Cons:
-May obscure vision of nearby medic's attempts to rez player.
-Reveals troop positions that the player did not see up until the point of their death.

Cam on detected post-death enemy
Pros:
-Helps new players out, giving them a very detailed explanation as to who killed them and where they got killed from.
-Helps exposing annoying f2p hackers.
Cons:
-Disadvantageous to Defenders whenever they kill someone and for X seconds afterwards while the fallen dude gives away valuable up to date troop locations.
-Even with this enemy info new players may still not benefit from it if they are not familiar with the map.
-Unavoidably reveals your location to whoever you kill, potentially hurting cloaker/sniper/ordinance gameplay.
-Gives a real time feed of enemy movement which could be relayed to allied troops to gain unfair advantages.
-No way to tell if someone is still watching/relaying your position.
-May obscure vision of nearby medic's attempts to rez player.

Replays Saved to Folder
Pros:
-Great source of information for new players and old grumpy vets alike.
-Does not reveal any troop locations till way after the fact.
-Great for sharing video with your friends/youtube.
-Very helpful for exposing annoying f2p hackers.
Cons:
-Not so accessible to new players.
-Could still potentially give away sneaky tactics.
-Would still need some in game death camera to compliment it otherwise the player would just be staring at a respawn timer.

I tried to outline some of the pros and cons of the different camera options, but I'm certain I missed a bunch of points, perhaps we can compile and agree upon a finalized list of pros/cons and use that to come up with a good comprise between the different death cams.

[Gortha]

Originally Posted by ThGlump

Great summary Hamma. Thats why there is that much uproar with any mechanics taken from "modern" shooters.
We know what we want. Better game that was planetside1. Devs see way to make game better in incorporating mechanics from BF/COD while keeping planetside core mechanics. And thats what bugs ps1 vets, and then we yell about it

We are old grumpy folks, remembering good old games, fighting against younglings whose knows only modern games, over game mechanics. Sadly we will be overpopulated by them, so even if we yell all day, they will make game for them.

They don´t make the game for them, they should make the best game they could. For old folks as for the young.

This does not mean, they have to make a game more casual/more arcarde like as needed.
Even young folks would love the real challanging aspects of good old tactical
shooters, without grinding for weapons or some stupid medals...
The feeling of a real success like a Win, good moves, some amazing ultrakill-series, killing the guy in a 1on1 you were never able before - will be more satisfying than getting some medal for X Kills or the 10000th Reload of your weapon - even for young folks.

Making this or any game easier and easier, less challenging, "more console game-like"*sryconsoleheros* won´t satisfy the young more than keeping it "old school" / challanging, call it more "realistic" in the long RUN.

And PS2 should be a game for the long run. So don´t oversimplify the game,
and giving away free Intel via a KillCam simplifys the game and lessens the character of a real battle.

As i mentioned in a posting before.


KillCam is a No Go in E-Sports in Turnaments as in Leagues.
The simple reason is, that there is challenge and in Planetside2
there will be permanent challange.

A big enduring Clanwar over Auraxis.

There are NO Pros for KillCam. Just CONS.

[Gortha]

Originally Posted by Figment

And what isn't what the PS1 vets want, is by definition a commercial succes?

And what if neither what the PS2 devs want or PS1 vets want is a commercial succes?

If we all know what's a commercial succes in advance, why are we discussing here? Sorry, but did you ask the masses what a succesful formula is? What if all these games were a succes DESPITE of a couple bad formulas in it?


Just saying, if you have an argument that cuts three ways and no evidence to back it up because it's basically moot, especially if it's an alternative to something that already worked pretty damn well, no need to bring it up. And please, don't make the (FPS) game industry into a new Hollywood. EA is doing that already.



But is anyone here saying PS1 failed because they lacked some minor features that "modern" FPS games have? (Read definition of "modern FPS" as: "game franchises that have remained almost unchanged as they've been selling the exact same games for the last 10 years in new graphics and on occasion with some new multiplayer maps next to a new single player campaign").

So if it had a proper killcam that showed your death and basically gave you a negative last impression because they rubbed in that you got killed would have actually made you want to play again? xD

So if we got killcams for EVERY SINGLE TIME you got spawncamped FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE KILLER, ... that'd been a good thing, how?

Love you Figment

[JHendy]

Originally Posted by FRIENDLYUNIT

I'm an emphatic no. I want a "thinking persons shooter" experience from PS2.
If I wanted any CoD or BF elements I'd just play that.

^ Pretty much sums it up.

[Lord Cosine]

So first off, I love just about every aspect of the first planetside including the death camera they used. If I had my way CoD death cams would not make it into PS2.

However I'm certain there must be some benefits to the kill cams even if they have no place in ps2, or are minimal/debatable. If we can identify the reason a developer would include one into their game then perhaps we can offer an alternative that fulfills that the intended positive qualities while not not infringing upon the tactical nature of the first game.

Like if the reasoning is to help out new players, then perhaps there is a better alternative.

Like the PS1 death cam but with some added info, like an indicator for the AoE that just barely caught you, or a contrail from the bullet that ended your life. Perhaps a breakdown of all the targets that damaged you and with what in the last 20s. We could have this camera circle the player normally so it doesn't give away that cloaker on the roof, it only says you died from a grenade that was right here. Or a bullet from a AMP that came from behind you.

[Graywolves]

There's 111 of us, if we still hate it in beta, we'll threaten to all simultaneously Tbag every dev and smedly if it doesn't go.


Deal?

[Lord Cosine]

Beta is going to be very interesting hehe. I'm curious how vast the changes will be from beta till launch. If we have our way I'm sure it will be a very different sexy beast.

[FirstChaos]

kill cams are a horrid idea they only exist for super casual bad players so they can come back and kill you. IE if I'm a cloaker or sniper i don't want you to know where the hell I am .

[Tehroth]

In a game like this there shouldn't be any kill cams. Kind of ruins sneak attacks by showing numbers, position and classes. If you want that kind of information send out a scouting party.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Hamma

Gaming as we know it has become very cookie cutter.

Gaming has developed several standards for a few game archtypes, iterated and improved on over many years and many billions of dollars worth of development.

There are cookie cutter designs because they are popular and just plain work.

The mistake is thinking they are forever unchanging. Sure, PS is copying a lot of stuff from modern FPSs. But its also bringing a LOT of new stuff to the table. Its not just straight up copy/pasting.

[Crator]

I kind of like the idea of the kill cam cause you can have some fun with it. But, I do agree with most here that it probably shouldn't be in this game. Too much info gathering to be gained imo. Suppose it could be implemented in a way that might not do that but seems like most don't want it. And if it is in defiantly should have ability to toggle off.

This same sort of thing, that has the same if not more fun factor, can be done a different way. In fact one of our community members has a project going to stream live footage (with a delay to avoid giving info away)...

[Chinchy]

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Of course myself and the majority of the playerbase do not want it, but since the COD/BF crowd do the team is going to put it in anyway. Not going to argue about it anymore myself.

I speak for that crowd and we don't like it either don't know why the AAA Devs think people like that crap.

[RadarX]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

[HitbackTR]

Originally Posted by RadarX

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

Hi Radar. I am 99.999999999% against kill-cams in PS2 as I don't believe it is a feature which promotes the spirit of Planetside's unique gameplay. For me the only concession I would make is to have the ability to have kill-cam toggled off by me meaning that if I were to kill someone then the person would not be able to see where I was or where I was going because I had turned it off. Problem solved right? This, for me at least, is the ONLY way I could condone it being in game.

I believe if you are doing the killing then the advantage should remain with you as you earned it. Also the option to give up that advantage should also be your choice to give up instead of if being a default feature of the game which rewards the victim with info about your whereabouts, (intended or otherwise) after dying.