Damage to players driving open top vehicles (ATV, buggy)

[The Desert Fox]

I agree with bags on this one, let it be, let it be

[Timantium]

Originally Posted by I SandRock

As for infantry AV not being able to hit a fast moving ATV very easily, thats how it's suppose to be if you ask me.

2 out of 3 of the empire specific infantry AV weapons target atv just fine.

My argument is if I adequately ambush a vehicle I should have some way of getting the kill. Under the current system, it is very hard, near imossible to get kills on ATV with infantry weapons because they can jump off and still have full health. The two separate issues are connected. Either I need to be able to damage the driver while they are driving the vehicle, or it needs to take longer for them to bail or they need to take damage from bailing.

Right now, the ATV is like an extra shield on their stats because I have to kill them both separately.

That is not a realistic physical relationship. The warp bailing is bad mechanics and, you're right, an entirely different issue. If my damage from hits on the person effected the person instead of the vehicle, this problem would be solved.

[I SandRock]

Originally Posted by Timantium

2 out of 3 of the empire specific infantry AV weapons target atv just fine.

Lancer is fine like that because it has other drawbacks. TR lock-on should be removed completely. Seriously try use an ATV yourself, or a buggy. Especially against TR there is no point currently. Only the SG has any use.

ATV's arent overpowered - at all.

[Timantium]

I'm not suggesting this as a nerf to ATV certs or that current ATVs are overpowered. I agree that the striker is ezmode and should be changed to require more skill from the user. That is another issue for another thread.

My suggestion is to make the game more realistic in regards to how the open top vehicles distribute (or in this case don't distribute) damage to the vulnerable driver. I don't for a second think the ATV should be a viable ground battle weapon, this is probably why military forces around the world are not commonly seen with ATV weapons.

I see these more as a low cert, quick transport for solo players who want to travel in Rexo gear. I still cert ATV, for this very reason. If I was a lower BR it would probably be the only vehicle cert I would keep while I earned ranks.

Buggys are different, and in smaller scale fights I like the buggy to get around with a squadmate. I see the buggys not as front line vehicle battle participants (at least not where the tanks can roll/hover), but rather as two-seat recon, anti infantry (AA in the SG case) and fast travel vehicles. The military uses jeeps to transport officers around, not to lead the assault.

So once again, I am not trying to suggest that the vehicles be nerfed. I want their roles to be defined clearly in PS:N and for the damage distribution to be more realistic.

[I SandRock]

I understand. I would like realism too where if you hit somebody that is out in the open, you hurt them. BUT everything always needs to take a backseat to what works in gameplay terms.
You brought up reasons that said ATVs were too strong and this would be the fix (you couldn't kill them with AV etc.) That's why I said they are fine as they are.

If it's purely about realism, yeah i agree. But if this would be implemented ATVs would actually be nerfed in the process. As well as buggies. And that's something I don't want. Hence why I said add a shield to the ATV (like you get shields on galaxy etc atm) which you first have to shoot down and then you can hurt the driver/vehicle. That would bring the balance back a bit.


As for buggies. I agree to some extend. I do think you give them too little value and only see them as two person transport, pretty much. I wouldn't compare buggies too jeeps but more to APCs. They are light vehicles meant to mostly harass anything bigger than them through hit and run tactics (guerilla warfare). Get in, hit them, get out fast. They would never be able to have a 1vs1 head to head fight with a heavy tank and win. They DO serve mostly as AI (except for SG which in my opinion is great and perfectly balanced at the moment). The AI empire specific (and I mostly have experience with the trasher) are too weak in my opinion, especially and most notably when fighting the TR with lock on weapons. The buggies lack a lot of defense but have speed to their advantage, speed doesn't work against lock ons though. Well, you could argue you can hide faster but that also means you are hiding most of the time as pretty much every grunt, especially TR, carries an AV weapon.

I remember some 2-3 years ago when these vehicles were more useful. They were good against AI but when focused on couldn't attack for very long. They were also useful when combined with heavy tanks. I used the trasher alongside magriders to annoy BFRs and get them to fire at me while the magriders would barrage them. And if they stopped focusing on me you could focus fire on them and still do some decent damage.

If you were to introduce this change, it would be a nerf to buggies as well. Which in their current state I don't find fair. Even more so than the ATV because the vehicle itself is already very vulnerable and can't take a beating. The advantage of firing at the driver is that they can't bail and still have a running chance. (So its an ATV nerf).
Buggies however are suppose to last much longer than ATVs. If you were to expose the driver then the easiest and faster way to get rid of the buggy is to fire near the driver window. With AV weapons you already have a huge blast radius so this would severely weaken the defenses.
It also wouldn't make much sense to me that in the future they get rid of driver protection and just put them out in the open to be honest

[Timantium]

So it appears we all agree that TR "look ma, no hands!" AV weapons need to be redesigned.

Regarding everything else, it sounds like you would simply prefer a buff to ATV and buggy certs.

Fair enough, lets beef the armor plating on buggy's to protect the driver and make the openings to shoot inside at the driver/gunner smaller or harder to hit. Lets add a windshield or some energy/magnetic shielding on ATV to boost the defensive capability.

What if we split the dmg 75/25 or 60/40 when you shoot passenger zones on an atv or buggy? AV weapons already do less dmg to players anyway and vice versa so perhaps we can split the dmg and apply it to both through a specific (or even a variable depending on where you aim) ratio. Sort of like how the BFR have that sweet spot. Maybe we should be able to cause functionality dmg to all vehicles for hitting their weak spots. (This might be an interesting idea for another thread actually).

I used the harasser to cordinate outfit LLU runs all the time. The Thrasher is not a bad buggy if you get a decent gunner. I love the lawnmower that the TR use and the deci on wheels has plenty of uses as well. People don't cert it because there is very little creativity left in the open field part of the game. Everyone is Air Cav, HA, AA, gimp.

Case in point: I splashed 6 reavers and 3 mossies off the pad at Orisha last night in a Starfire. This was over a 4 minute period. I felt dirty.

[I SandRock]

I do think they could use a little love, or perhaps AV could use a nerf. That's why I don't want to see an additional nerf come to them. As long as they give a buff to make up for the driver vulnerability i'm all game

[Bags]

Buff the striker and make it harder to use so it's comparable to the god-of-all-esav, the lancer.