Infinite revive isn't balanced for zerg/large scale play

[PredatorFour]

What we need then is some kind of revolutionary 'inventory' style system. A system where you have to personally stock up items on your desired loadout and hence you can run out of revive canisters, say if you are just a dedicated medic like me.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Figment

Med juice and engi glue should both have limits. In fact, I'd say repairing or healing different types of units should drain med and engi supplies relative to the strength of those units.

I'm glad you bring up engineers, because it's the same problem. Get 10 tanks, or hell, even 3 or 4, camping an outpost spawn room, and chances are, they will be blanketing it with splash damage and while a few shots will still get fired out and hit them, you won't actually be able to inflict any losses on them since, if 1 of the tanks actually gets in danger, it will simply hop out and repair, backing away behind a rock if needed. Note: I know that the BEST solution to such a situation is to counterattack from a different base. And, indeed, while counterattacking from a different base should be required to defeat an attacking zerg, it should not be required to inflict mere losses on one.

I'd also like to see optional Airburst AV shells that, when they hit a tank, they do a fraction of the damage a normal AV rocket would do, but do splash damage that hurts nearby infantry (say, 2 hits would kill a light assault within the blast radius - I am not suggesting a one hit kill thing). This would help curb the phenomenon of poorly placed sunderers/tanks/etc setting up in plain sight knowing they can outrepair damage.

[Calista]

If they did something like this (and I think it is a good idea to do so) it would likely need to be tied to resources. You could do something like each limiting these activities to resources per use. I think I saw on the MLG streams where an outfit primarily ran mostly medics so the decrement would have to be substantial to limit that type of style. But since most groups don't play like this is would penalize them a great deal. This is just another issue with the current class system letting anyone be anything at anytime and it isn't easily solvable because of it.

[findus]

...on the other hand...

You already get a xp bonus for reviving/repairing squad mates, right?

In the outlined scenario those who are not in a squad or are in a different outfit won't get a revive, because those will be concentrated on your fellow squadmembers. You already get punished for not being in a squad / outfit by not getting the xp bonus (thats ok), getting routinely kicked out of transports (mostly nowwhere in the wilderness), out there you are denied a transport, driven over by outfit members, tked and whatnot...

The usual solution for the endless revive/repair problem is already there, get the high priority target first, which is not the MAX, but the engineer behind. A zerg is a zerg, if i'm outnumbered i won't win, one way or the other.

There are many pros and cons, i find the existing system good, resource based system may lead to a fight which ends after some time with LAs and HAs only. I sometimes wonder, why after a long fight the skys are clear of aircraft and only cheap vehicles show up....

Interesting proposals, we will see where this leads....

[Stardouser]

I have always seen infinite revives as a problem, but it has become even more apparent when I see, for example, a 30 man force steamroll 5-10 guys across 5 straight latticed outposts and taking no meaningful losses throughout the entire run. Not saying the 5-10 guys should have a chance to win, but across 5 different base caps, being able to blow up a couple of tanks or MAXes and causing resource losses should be doable.

I've actually played around using smoke grenades to sneak in and C4 both a max, his engineer and anyone else nearby who are revive-camping the cap point room, it does work, but you can't kill the entire room and all it takes is one medic to wipe away everything you did. With responsible limits on revives, the second time you get in and C4 that MAX, he will have to respawn.

[Badjuju]

On the contrary, infinite revives are the only thing that keeps smaller coordinated squads in the game IMO, especially if they are attacking. Smaller forces would not stand a chance in any attack or defending a base with scattered objectives with limited revives.

[Lonehunter]

Originally Posted by Badjuju

On the contrary, infinite revives are the only thing that keeps smaller coordinated squads in the game IMO, especially if they are attacking. Smaller forces would not stand a chance in any attack or defending a base with scattered objectives with limited revives.

Exactly. PS2 is a numbers game. If you have 5 people trying to take on 30 and all or at least most of your 5 aren't medics, you shouldn't expect to get anywhere.

[War Barney]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

What we need then is some kind of revolutionary 'inventory' style system. A system where you have to personally stock up items on your desired loadout and hence you can run out of revive canisters, say if you are just a dedicated medic like me.

This is a good idea, they could make it be as you say revive canisters that need to be stocked up on like C4 meaning you can carry a maximum amount (say 2) and can increase the amount you carry by sacrificing nanomesh/flak. And of course make it something you need to spec for like you need to spec 200 then 500 for 2 C4 you need to spec the same for the revive canisters. This way to be a properly useful medic you need to spec a fair few points into it. Right now I've specced like 100-150 certs into the revive tool and nothing else and when I go medic for a bit it works very well. My heavy though I've had to heavily invest in to make him useful.

As for the engineer they could make it so repairing isn't as effective a short while after something is damage. One of the major issues I find is I sit somewhere shooting rockets at tanks or sundies and 1 engi will easily outheal all the damage I'm doing and the only way to stop the engi is to somehow get right up next to the tank so I can kill him and even then he will just jump back inside. The only problem with this is that it doesn't help to much as in a zerg people will still just back off and heal up to full making it quite hard to finish off tanks.

The best solution would be to increase the amount of damage done by non guided rockets, right now it takes about 3-4 rockets to kill a lightning (from a phoenix anyway) which is more than enough time for it to run far out of range so all a rocket launcher is really doing is making them pull back for a short while before coming back again instead of actually getting kills. This leads to tanks having nothing to fear when they zerg as the only thing that will really kill them if other tanks but when they zerg to hell theres so many of them its nigh on impossible to stay alive long enough to kill 1.

Again though the weapons that medics and engis can use should be looked at along with this, they just have to much fire power considering they are meant to be a support class.

Also... did they nerf the C4 despite poeple saying they wouldn't cos I tried to destroy a sundie last night and it took 2 C4 and 4 rockets... how is a heavy meant to be useful if it takes THAT long to kill a sundie? and thats with no engis repairing at all.

Part of the reason a tank zerg is so potent is that infantry have limited tools right now to deal with it, tanks should fear heavies with rockets but right now they don't as unless you have 2-3 heavies shooting you at once with lock on rockets in a wide open area you are pretty much safe. During a zerg most tanks just sit out in the open as they don't feel threatened at all.

[PredatorFour]

Thing is Star, numbers will always roll over small teams in a game like this. Revives are a great help that really good small teams can use against overwhelming numbers to put up a decent fight. It's the classic 'zerg with biggest zerg wins zerg fight'. Even with proposed changes to the reviving system, you will still get the same problem because of sheer numbers.

Team with most medics = most revives/healing whether they are on timers or wateva.

[War Barney]

Originally Posted by Lonehunter

Exactly. PS2 is a numbers game. If you have 5 people trying to take on 30 and all or at least most of your 5 aren't medics, you shouldn't expect to get anywhere.

It should take more people to attack than to defend but that just doesn't happen right now. The problem is that no base is really defensible, sure theres turrets and things but infantry just rush right through the shields and kill everybody on the turrets while LA jetpack up and kill everybody. All this combines to make defence much harder than it should be.

In some bases it works properly like howling pass because theres a large open expanse to get across and of course point A is very well held and that area gives a good vantage point to attack anybody taking the towers. Most bases however the mountains are so close that people use them to bypass the walls as well (with both infantry and tanks) and it makes the turrets a lot less helpful as people have tons of cover to use.

What should be worked on is ways to make bases more defensible, perhaps make it so nobody can get through the shield but theres a few other smaller doors people can use or something. The gateway is just a giant come on in for a zerg making it impossible to hold them back. Or perhaps make it so you need to galaxy drop in to bypass a shield on the inside to let infantry in. Right now tactics can't really stop a zerg it will just steamroll over everything, in a perfect world tactics would at least be able to slow down a zerg and a zerg would need to use tactics to win instead of just swarming like ants over everything

[DOUBLEXBAUGH]

Originally Posted by bpostal

When you're talking about ratios of that proportion then I would have to ask why Five people are trying to take on 30. Even with a perfect base design I can't see any kind situation where the defense should be able to hold against five or six times their numbers.
If those five were fighting 10, maybe even as many as 15 then sure...find their AMS, take it out and then swing around the other side of the base and hit 'em in the rear.
Lesser forces holding out against disproportional odds is all fine and well but not when you're talking more than three or four to one.

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Well, I know that the romantic ideal I mention is "holding" out against superior forces, but I am not myself saying that a lesser force should be able to "hold" against a larger one.

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Sure, if a smaller force is attacking, but that's doomed to fail anyway.

Originally Posted by Stardouser

...when I see, for example, a 30 man force steamroll 5-10... Not saying the 5-10 guys should have a chance to win,

Why should superior numbers always trump skill? A good squad in PS1 (10 people) could hold out against, or even take bases from, a platoon+ (30+) of bad zerglings. One of the selling points of PS2 was that skill was going to matter (as if it didn't in PS1), yet all that really matters is sheer numbers.

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

What we need then is some kind of revolutionary 'inventory' style system. A system where you have to personally stock up items on your desired loadout and hence you can run out of revive canisters, say if you are just a dedicated medic like me.

If only... if only

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

Thing is Star, numbers will always roll over small teams in a game like this. Revives are a great help that really good small teams can use against overwhelming numbers to put up a decent fight. It's the classic 'zerg with biggest zerg wins zerg fight'. Even with proposed changes to the reviving system, you will still get the same problem because of sheer numbers.

Team with most medics = most revives/healing whether they are on timers or wateva.

Taking a defensive example, 5 guys defending against 20, when do revives even factor in for the defenders? When you are taking fire the instant you step out of your spawn room and are generally respawning only, when are you reviving? I have been in situations where we outnumber the enemy as well, and I've never seen a situation where the outnumbering enemy all dies and respawns at their sunderer, giving the smaller force time to revive. Usually the smaller force all dies and has to respawn; I'm just not seeing where this factors in for the smaller force.

Now, with attacking small forces, sure, you might get a chance to do some revives because the enemy can't confront you all at once, but you still aren't going to cap a base out from under 20 guys with 8.

Question : I am talking about situations where your entire empire has only 5-10 guys against 20+ enemies. Are some of you talking about situations where your empire actually has a lot more than just your own squad, but you are talking about your own personal squad of 5-10 guys using revives for themselves and they are operating in coordination with each other, but in isolation from the rest of their empire that's nearby? If so, I guess that has to be considered, but it sounds like a situation where while you are talking about 5-10 guys only, your empire isn't outnumbered greatly.

[Chefkoch]

Originally Posted by Figment

Med juice and engi glue should both have limits. In fact, I'd say repairing or healing different types of units should drain med and engi supplies relative to the strength of those units.

No no you can't limit med and engi juice because that would be clever game design we had over a decade ago in the Original Planetside.

Personally i agree 100% on longer spawn timers aka death panaltiy and limited revive and repair capacity.

[War Barney]

Originally Posted by DOUBLEXBAUGH

Why should superior numbers always trump skill? A good squad in PS1 (10 people) could hold out against, or even take bases from, a platoon+ (30+) of bad zerglings. One of the selling points of PS2 was that skill was going to matter (as if it didn't in PS1), yet all that really matters is sheer numbers.






If only... if only

Indeed right now theres so many ways into a base and its so easy to camp spawn rooms that a zerg has it easy. Most of the time people in a zerg will sit out in the open as they don't care if they die cos they will respawn 5s later or get a revive from 1 of the 5 million medics who can revive a infinite number of times.

what needs doing is as follows really

1. Make respawn time on a sunderer twice as long if not more, this way defender can respawn quicker so have a chance to overwhelm bad attackers.

2. Limit the number of revives by making it something you have to spend resources to buy and are limited in how many you can carry at once.

3. Make big bases either have small posterns infantry get in through OR just make it so they need to galaxy in to get down the shields. Right now the huge gate infantry can get through means a zerg will always steamroll a base cos theres no way to really hold them back. If people needed to galaxy drop in at at least people could try to setup a lot of anti air to stop some of the galaxies getting in and it means stupid zergs with no brain at all would eventually stall.

4. Armour should be more vunerable to explosives so they have to take more care or sit further back, right now tanks just sit in the open right up close with 1 engi repairing and generally they have nothing to fear.

[typhaon]

I think people are on to something here...

Rez mechanic seems a bit over the top and could use some limits.