Driver/Gunners... NO!

[vVRedOctoberVv]

I'm sure the new setup will work fine. And in practice, as people have mentioned, the backup gunner watching your six will be critical, since tanks can be nearly one-shoted from behind now. Intelligent crews will "do their jobs" while idiots will not.

It's just a preference thing, more than anything else. I don't like certain aspects of the current system, but it really isn't "the end of the world".

And what is Buggsy even doing here? He left PlanetSide, I thought. Get going already!

[Azren]

Originally Posted by Zedek

You don't need to discourage soloing. You don't need to give a buff to people who coordinate. It will happen passively as coordinating people will have an innate advantage. Solo Tank VS Dedicated Gunner Tank - They have the same cannon, but one will be more mobile because the driver can watch where he's going.

It takes care of itself, and it's nice to not have to sit around waiting to get a gunner.

The point is not to discourage soloing, it is to encourage teamplay both in vehicles and overal. This is what Planetside is, this is why it is still around unlike all those BF and CoD games that came before the latest release.

There is a major problem with the suggestion to allow dedicated gunner as a cert for the tank: You would need one extra man to operate with the same firepower as a tank with drivergunner.
That is a hefty price to pay and not balanced. For this to work right, a tank with the optional dedicated gunner would have to sport greater armor than the normal counterpart.

This also doesn't solve the problem with the magrider. There the devs could create a secondary model (with rotatable turret of course) which gets spawned if the cert is active.

Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv

I'm sure the new setup will work fine. And in practice, as people have mentioned, the backup gunner watching your six will be critical, since tanks can be nearly one-shoted from behind now. Intelligent crews will "do their jobs" while idiots will not.

No. An intelligent crew does not get in a situation where they can be shot in the 6 in the first place. Situational awareness is where it's at! Exactly what will be lacking with the drivergunner setup.

Besides, you can not seriously belive that your gunner will watch your 6... he will look forward just like you, probably shoot the same enemy as you. Or do you think he will keep watching 6 when he knows that his tank is being damaged by an enemy at 12?

[Zebasiz]

Originally Posted by Azren

Besides, you can not seriously belive that your gunner will watch your 6... he will look forward just like you, probably shoot the same enemy as you. Or do you think he will keep watching 6 when he knows that his tank is being damaged by an enemy at 12?

I've been the secondary gunner sometimes on PS1 and I do watch the 6. as well as all the other time slots. It's why I'm in there. So yeah, some people will support the tank and watch its flank.

[BlueSkies]

Solo MBT < MBT with main driver/gunner + secondary AV gunner
Solo MBT < Air configured for air to ground
Solo MBT < MBT with main driver/gunner + secondary gunner when presented with multiple targets.

Simple fact: You are gimping yourself and wasting your own resources/cooldowns if you don't get yourself a secondary gunner.

So... whats the problem exactly?

[Zedek]

Originally Posted by BlueSkies

Solo MBT < MBT with main driver/gunner + secondary AV gunner
Solo MBT < Air configured for air to ground
Solo MBT < MBT with main driver/gunner + secondary gunner when presented with multiple targets.

Simple fact: You are gimping yourself and wasting your own resources/cooldowns if you don't get yourself a secondary gunner.

So... whats the problem exactly?

This.

Originally Posted by AzureWatcher

Pretty much this. This thread is full of posts about how difficult it is for them to drive and shoot at the same time. They want to nerf the game because of their own incompetence.

It's also full of the falsehood that the second gun is somehow weaker than the main cannon. It's not, and it can also be fitted to provide the tank with incredible versatility. In the Higby interview that was posted today, Matt mentions that you can fit your tank with an AA gun on the roof, or a second AT gun.

The MBTs still require teamwork for optimal performance. It's not like they are getting rid of it. They are just adapting it for a modern market. Driver&Cannon Operator + Roof Gunner instead of Driver + Cannon Operator.

So it's not that much of a change as you lot are making it out to be.

And this.

Seriously, there is nothing to bitch about here. Except maybe wanting to have the option to let a buddy take over your cannon so you can focus on driving.

[ruskyandrei]

See, this is what I was talking about. You contradict yourself here.

First you say:

Originally Posted by Azren

There is a major problem with the suggestion to allow dedicated gunner as a cert for the tank: You would need one extra man to operate with the same firepower as a tank with drivergunner.
That is a hefty price to pay and not balanced.

What I take from that is that you believe that having a cert for a dedicated gunner seat would be bad because it would be a weaker setup than a drivergunner + secondary gunner alone.

But then you say this:

Originally Posted by Azren

No. An intelligent crew does not get in a situation where they can be shot in the 6 in the first place. Situational awareness is where it's at! Exactly what will be lacking with the drivergunner setup.

From which I understand that you consider a drivergunner setup inferior due to the lack of awareness caused by having a person as both the driver and gunner.

And if having a dedicated gunner is better isn't that balanced ?

So which is it ? Is drivergunner bad because it's too powerful, or because it's too weak ?

[Azren]

Originally Posted by ruskyandrei

See, this is what I was talking about. You contradict yourself here.

First you say:


What I take from that is that you believe that having a cert for a dedicated gunner seat would be bad because it would be a weaker setup than a drivergunner + secondary gunner alone.

But then you say this:


From which I understand that you consider a drivergunner setup inferior due to the lack of awareness caused by having a person as both the driver and gunner.

And if having a dedicated gunner is better isn't that balanced ?

So which is it ? Is drivergunner bad because it's too powerful, or because it's too weak ?

You should not take things out of context.

What I wrote in the first quote is that if you take a tank where the driver guns the main gun, but has a gunner and put it up against a tank where the driver drives and the two guns are handled by gunners, they will have the same firepower, armor, but will require one extra man to operate effectively.
This immediatly would bring up the issue if it is better to pull 3 MBTs each with drivergunner setup, or one with gunners... Who would win a 3v1 fight you think?
Still, if balanded right, this could work. The need for an extra gunner should be compensated in some way, for example with an armor bonus.


On the second quote I talk about battlefield conditions, not straight up balance. That is where the dedicated driver comes into play, he is your lifeline basically. A driver who is not preoccupied with shooting has a far greater situational awareness.

See? There is no contridiction here. You just have to read everything in it's right context.

I find it hilarious by the way how easy you talk about drivergunners getting a gunner for their tank. It is hard to find random gunners in PS1 where you take control of the main gun, you think it will be easy in PS2, where you are stuck with secondary? Well, no, it will not be. Honestly, since everyone can now pull an MBT from the first second, they will just do that.

[ruskyandrei]

Originally Posted by Azren

You should not take things out of context.

What I wrote in the first quote is that if you take a tank where the driver guns the main gun, but has a gunner and put it up against a tank where the driver drives and the two guns are handled by gunners, they will have the same firepower, armor, but will require one extra man to operate effectively.
This immediatly would bring up the issue if it is better to pull 3 MBTs each with drivergunner setup, or one with gunners... Who would win a 3v1 fight you think?
Still, if balanded right, this could work. The need for an extra gunner should be compensated in some way, for example with an armor bonus.


On the second quote I talk about battlefield conditions, not straight up balance. That is where the dedicated driver comes into play, he is your lifeline basically. A driver who is not preoccupied with shooting has a far greater situational awareness.

See? There is no contridiction here. You just have to read everything in it's right context.

I find it hilarious by the way how easy you talk about drivergunners getting a gunner for their tank. It is hard to find random gunners in PS1 where you take control of the main gun, you think it will be easy in PS2, where you are stuck with secondary? Well, no, it will not be. Honestly, since everyone can now pull an MBT from the first second, they will just do that.

Resources, you're forgetting about resources! 3 MBTs cost 3 times as much as 1 (duh :P ) so while 3 MBTs might win against a single three man MBT, that simply because that is what should happen when you spend three times as many resources.

And battlefield conditions making having a dedicated gunner an advantage is related to balance.

So everyone will be pulling their own MBT all the time right ? Even when out of resources, even when it's on cooldown ? Even when they could just as easily jump in that nice TOW launcher on that new MBT the guy in front just spawned ?

[Tehroth]

I agree with this, The large tanks and airships should have a crew that works together and shares kills, xp and the experiences of the game together. I am fine with smaller vehicles being single manned.

[KaB]

Originally Posted by Buggsy

Will be removed from the game, or won't function the way you think it will function. Do you seriously think players on the losing team are going to stay on the losing team if they can't spawn anything? Hahahaha, that's not how ti goes.

Resources will be removed from the game before BETA is over.

It sounds quite unthinkable, but I've also been thinking about it and a sort of ulterior motive makes me think that SOE will forget the ressources and will end up stucking on the Tribes' F2P model (buying xp boost).

Ressources might be really interesting financially, but it might also unbalance the game. We'll see how they deal with it, but here are my thoughts.

[AzureWatcher]

Oh well. I'm still very glad they made the change.

I also hope they ignore the very vocal minority and keep it the way it is. There's nothing wrong with the new system except some of the old PS1 vets won't get their fix of nostalgia.

[KaB]

Originally Posted by AzureWatcher

There's nothing wrong with the new system except some of the old PS1 vets won't get their fix of nostalgia.

Blizzard had more respect for the Starcraft 1 vets, and I'm not sure PS2 will make better than SC2 in terms of success.

[SFJake]

Originally Posted by KaB

Blizzard had more respect for the Starcraft 1 vets

Whaaat?

Yeah right. Thats not true at all.

[KaB]

Originally Posted by SFJake

Whaaat?

Yeah right. Thats not true at all.

I'll be more specific, and then it's your turn ok ?

A majority of the SC2's elite were the majority of the SC1's elite. I don't think it's going to be the case for PS2. At all !

[Ratstomper]

Originally Posted by AzureWatcher

Oh well. I'm still very glad they made the change.

I also hope they ignore the very vocal minority and keep it the way it is. There's nothing wrong with the new system except some of the old PS1 vets won't get their fix of nostalgia.

Completely agree, and I played PS1 for many years. I HATED the MBT system.

It's just a handful of hypothetical theorists who can't see the forest for the trees.

Originally Posted by KaB

I'll be more specific, and then it's your turn ok ?

A majority of the SC2's elite were the majority of the SC1's elite. I don't think it's going to be the case for PS2. At all !

For what reason?