Hussein info....

[Gortha]

@WRH_KoldFusion:

Normally i would give a shit on this question, cause it is a waste of time to answer your questions....

But, for now i will answer.... WRH_KoldFusion there is a search-function in the Forum, lock at the top.... search after my name and u will find enough.

Gortha

[Navaron]

Gortha,

It would seem you have taken the same route as your country.

Don't try and refutiate any of these facts, just ignore them, and continue to slander the US. So is Iraqi plight just not your problem? Have you no morals? Or is money that important to you?

I'll repeat, I've yet to see you directly take on any fact here, or in 99% of your other posts. You just post little slander columns and posts from other people who don't trouble themselves with facts.

If you guys are so high and mighty, why can't you take on even ONE point out of all these articles I posted? Maybe cause it doesn't benifit your wallet? Or maybe cause you know you can sit back and let the US do the dirty work and then when the war is over step in and take your UN slice of the country- like your country and the french were trying.

[Gortha]

THere is the chance top disarm Iraq/Saddam without War... u can�t say NO.... this is stupid very stupid.... the US never brought a proof if there are weapons... with the proofs the US brought u can�t evidence an egg-thief that e has stolen some eggs.

And than u want to reason a war with those "proofs"....? lol

U know there is the Oil, there are the Weapons.... this all brings Money to someone. Especially the Oil.

There are the Neoconservative ThinkTanks(PNAC f.e.) who forged the Iraq-War/Plans already in 1998..... isn�t it droll, that many of these neoconservative PNAC-Members ("Project for The New American Century") are now Members of the US-Administration???

----------------------------------------
PNAC-Members:

Richard B. Cheney

Lewis Libby is Cheneys Stabschef,

Donald Rumsfeld

Paul Dundes Wolfowitz

Peter W. Rodman

John Bolton

Richard Armitage

Richard Perle, Chef of American Defense Policy Board,

William Kristol, the PNAC-chef, one of Bush�s biggest advisors

Zalmay Khalilzad
---------------------------------------------

And i think the most of u don�t know what in 1992 come out in the "New York Times":

Translatortext:

The 1992 of \"New the York Times \" suggestions, ran out formulated from the today's cabinet members Wolfowitz and Libby, revealed to replace the deterrence doctrine pursued during the cold war by a completely new global strategy.
A goal was the durable preservation of the superpower position of the USA - also opposite Europe, Russia and China.

This purpose should \"Mechanismen \" to serve, which deter
potenzielle competitors from it, \"unsere guidance in question to
place or also only a larger regional or global role to play want \" -
formulations, which admits after their becomes promptly for detuning in the metropolises of Europe and Asia provided. Necessarily, it meant in the Wolfowitz Libby paper, is above all a stable American supremacy in Eurasien. A country, which threatens the interests of the USA approximately by the acquisition of massenvernichtungswaffen, must
count on preventive attacks. The traditional alliances have to be
replaced by \"Ad hoc coalitions \", \"die not longer existence have
than the current crisis persist \". in September 2000 - only few
months before the start of the government Bush - locked the PNAC the work on an updating of the world-political master plan of 1992. This on behalf study written of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Libby (\"Rebuilding America\'s Defenses \") is the question to likewise dedicate, the \"wie global US supremacy upright to keep, the ascent of a rivaling great power prevent and the international safety order in accordance with American principles and interests be arranged can \".

This War is for: Money! Oil! WeaponIndustry! Saddams Death!(only good reason)

Have to work cya ya

Gortha

[KoldFusion]

Gortha,
I know there is a search function. I know how to use it. I was merely saying in a round about (sarcastically/poking fun at) way that you haven't posted anything of REAL relevance. Your last post is a step in the right direction.... (eventhough we will never see eye to eye) I commend you on your effort.

[Warborn]

the US never brought a proof if there are weapons... with the proofs the US brought u can�t evidence an egg-thief that e has stolen some eggs.

The US doesn't need to prove that Iraq has weapons. Iraq needs to prove that they don't have weapons, which even the inspectors have said Iraq has not done (large quantities of VX gas, among other weapons, are unaccounted for).

And no, it's not the job of the inspectors to find the weapons either. They're there to verify that the weapons have been destroyed. For example, when South Africa disarmed, the inspectors were there to prove that South Africa was free of all illegal weaponry. The South African government provided detailed records of all their weapons, free and unfettered access to all sites and personnel related to the weapons, and showed the inspectors that they had disarmed. Iraq has not done that, and will not do that.

Garbage. Pro-war people have very good points and anti-war people have very good points. Just because you don't agree with them does not mean they are pathetic and don't have a clue.

I've yet to hear any respectable anti-war points. All those people keep saying is "war solved nothing" and "there are better solutions" or "the inspectors haven't found any biological weapons so Iraq clearly doesn't have any", all of which are terribly ignorant and ill-conceived points. So, that aside, if you've something to add which I haven't already mentioned, I'd be more than happy to hear it.

[Gortha]

@Warbon:

Why is it a bad idea, to give the inspectors the time to disarm Iraq istead of killin many People with a War?

[Mtx]

Originally posted by Warborn
The US doesn't need to prove that Iraq has weapons. Iraq needs to prove that they don't have weapons,

Guilty until proven innocent.

It's nice to know at least one of you admit we are acting like Communists.

[MrVicchio]

MTX Gortha...

First off, the inspectors have had 12 years

Secondly, you forget, he HAD those weapons, and was supposed to SELF DISARM, not BE DISARMED, the inspectors are there to ensure IRAQI COMPLIANCE to play cat and mouse.

[Mtx]

What threat has Iraq been in the last 10+ years that requires an immediate American invasion?

Has he been using these weapons on anyone lately? Where are these weapons? Why can't the most powerful and technologicaly advanced military in the world find one shred of evidence? Oh that's right... because they're being outsmarted by a third world country.

The economy is in a slump. War always helps an economy... especially when you get some oil out of it.

[Navaron]

"Guilty until proven innocent"

There was no proven to it. He admitted he was guilty, judgement was passed by the world, and he agreed to pay the piper. Then, he sees that there are a bunch of people out there who don't actually mean what they say. So then he broke his agreement.

No one has anything to prove except Hussein. His job was to show people that he had disarmed, this is why the world stopped kicking his ass.

This isn't a court case, it's a the execution of a sentence. There is no question of guilt.

"Why is it a bad idea, to give the inspectors the time to disarm Iraq istead of killin many People with a War?"

How much more time do they need? They are detectives, they are reporters. The inspectors job is to watch hussein destroy and turn over his weapons.

Hussein has killed millions of his own people. If we were to go in recklessly and kill 500,000 Iraqi civillians, we would still kill less than he has and will in the future, so even in a worse case scenario, war is still the better option.

here's an article:

How Many People Has Hussein Killed?
By JOHN F. BURNS

n the unlit blackness of an October night, it took a flashlight to pick them out: rust-colored butchers' hooks, 20 or more, each four or five feet long, aligned in rows along the ceiling of a large hangar-like building. In the grimmest fortress in Iraq's gulag, on the desert floor 20 miles west of Baghdad, this appeared to be the grimmest corner of all, the place of mass hangings that have been a documented part of life under Saddam Hussein.

At one end of the building at Abu Ghraib prison, a whipping wind gusted through open doors. At the far end, the flashlight picked out a windowed space that appeared to function as a control room. Baggy trousers of the kind worn by many Iraqi men were scattered at the edges of the concrete floor. Some were soiled, as if worn in the last, humiliating moments of a condemned man's life.

The United States is facing a new turning point in its plans to go to war to topple Mr. Hussein, with additional American troops heading for the Persian Gulf, while France and Germany lead the international opposition. But the pressure President Bush has applied already has created chances to peer into the darkest recesses of Iraqi life.

In the past two months, United Nations weapons inspections, mandated by American insistence that Mr. Hussein's pursuit of banned weapons be halted, have ranged widely across the country. But before this became the international community's only goal, Mr. Bush was also attacking Mr. Hussein as a murdering tyrant. It was this accusation that led the Iraqi leader to virtually empty his prisons on Oct. 20, giving Western reporters, admitted that day to Abu Ghraib, a first-hand glimpse of the slaughterhouse the country has become.

In the end, if an American-led invasion ousts Mr. Hussein, and especially if an attack is launched without convincing proof that Iraq is still harboring forbidden arms, history may judge that the stronger case was the one that needed no inspectors to confirm: that Saddam Hussein, in his 23 years in power, plunged this country into a bloodbath of medieval proportions, and exported some of that terror to his neighbors.

Reporters who were swept along with tens of thousands of near-hysterical Iraqis through Abu Ghraib's high steel gates were there because Mr. Hussein, stung by Mr. Bush's condemnation, had declared an amnesty for tens of thousands of prisoners, including many who had served long sentences for political crimes. Afterward, it emerged that little of long-term significance had changed that day. Within a month, Iraqis began to speak of wide-scale re-arrests, and officials were whispering that Abu Ghraib, which had held at least 20,000 prisoners, was filling up again.

Like other dictators who wrote bloody chapters in 20th-century history, Mr. Hussein was primed for violence by early childhood. Born into the murderous clan culture of a village that lived off piracy on the Tigris River, he was harshly beaten by a brutal stepfather. In 1959, at age 22, he made his start in politics as one of the gunmen who botched an attempt to assassinate Iraq's first military ruler, Abdel Karim Kassem.

Since then, Mr. Hussein's has been a tale of terror that scholars have compared to that of Stalin, whom the Iraqi leader is said to revere, even if his own brutalities have played out on a small scale. Stalin killed 20 million of his own people, historians have concluded. Even on a proportional basis, his crimes far surpass Mr. Hussein's, but figures of a million dead Iraqis, in war and through terror, may not be far from the mark, in a country of 22 million people.

Where the comparison seems closest is in the regime's mercilessly sadistic character. Iraq has its gulag of prisons, dungeons and torture chambers � some of them acknowledged, like Abu Ghraib, and as many more disguised as hotels, sports centers and other innocent-sounding places. It has its overlapping secret-police agencies, and its culture of betrayal, with family members denouncing each other, and offices and factories becoming hives of perfidy.

"Enemies of the state" are eliminated, and their spouses, adult children and even cousins are often tortured and killed along with them.

[Navaron]

Mr. Hussein even uses Stalinist maxims, including what an Iraqi defector identified as one of the dictator's favorites: "If there is a person, then there is a problem. If there is no person, then there is no problem."

There are rituals to make the end as terrible as possible, not only for the victims but for those who survive. After seizing power in July 1979, Mr. Hussein handed weapons to surviving members of the ruling elite, then joined them in personally executing 22 comrades who had dared to oppose his ascent.


The terror is self-compounding, with the state's power reinforced by stories that relatives of the victims pale to tell � of fingernail-extracting, eye-gouging, genital-shocking and bucket-drowning. Secret police rape prisoners' wives and daughters to force confessions and denunciations. There are assassinations, in Iraq and abroad, and, ultimately, the gallows, the firing squads and the pistol shots to the head.

DOING the arithmetic is an imprecise venture. The largest number of deaths attributable to Mr. Hussein's regime resulted from the war between Iraq and Iran between 1980 and 1988, which was launched by Mr. Hussein. Iraq says its own toll was 500,000, and Iran's reckoning ranges upward of 300,000. Then there are the casualties in the wake of Iraq's 1990 occupation of Kuwait. Iraq's official toll from American bombing in that war is 100,000 � surely a gross exaggeration � but nobody contests that thousands of Iraqi soldiers and civilians were killed in the American campaign to oust Mr. Hussein's forces from Kuwait. In addition, 1,000 Kuwaitis died during the fighting and occupation in their country.

Casualties from Iraq's gulag are harder to estimate. Accounts collected by Western human rights groups from Iraqi �migr�s and defectors have suggested that the number of those who have "disappeared" into the hands of the secret police, never to be heard from again, could be 200,000. As long as Mr. Hussein remains in power, figures like these will be uncheckable, but the huge toll is palpable nonetheless.

Just as in Stalin's Russia, the machinery of death is mostly invisible, except for the effects it works on those brushed by it � in the loss of relatives and friends, and in the universal terror that others have of falling into the abyss. If anybody wants to know what terror looks like, its face is visible every day on every street of Iraq.

"Minders," the men who watch visiting reporters day and night, are supposedly drawn from among the regime's harder men. But even they break down, hands shaking, eyes brimming, voices desperate, when reporters ask ordinary Iraqis edgy questions about Mr. Hussein.

"You have killed me, and killed my family," one minder said after a photographer for The New York Times made unauthorized photographs of an exhibition of statues of the Iraqi dictator during a November visit to Baghdad's College of Fine Arts. In recent years, the inexorable nature of Iraq's horrors have been demonstrated by new campaigns bearing the special hallmark of Mr. Hussein. In 1999, a complaint about prison overcrowding led to an instruction from the Iraqi leader for a "prison cleansing" drive. This resulted, according to human rights groups, in hundreds, and possibly thousands, of executions.

Using a satanic arithmetic, prison governors worked out how many prisoners would have to be hanged to bring the numbers down to stipulated levels, even taking into account the time remaining in the inmates' sentences. As 20 and 30 prisoners at a time were executed at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere, warders trailed through cities like Baghdad, "selling" exemption from execution to shocked families, according to people in Iraq who said they had spoken to relatives of those involved. Bribes of money, furniture, cars and even property titles brought only temporary stays.

MORE recently, according to Iraqis who fled to Jordan and other neighboring countries, scores of women have been executed under a new twist in a "return to faith" campaign proclaimed by Mr. Hussein. Aimed at bolstering his support across the Islamic world, the campaign led early on to a ban on drinking alcohol in public. Then, some time in the last two years, it widened to include the public killing of accused prostitutes.

Often, the executions have been carried out by the Fedayeen Saddam, a paramilitary group headed by Mr. Hussein's oldest son, 38-year-old Uday. These men, masked and clad in black, make the women kneel in busy city squares, along crowded sidewalks, or in neighborhood plots, then behead them with swords. The families of some victims have claimed they were innocent of any crime save that of criticizing Mr. Hussein.

-Yet again, we are disarming him, because he CAN NOT hit us here in the US with WMDs. He hates us, but can't deliver it. So what will he do to hit us? He'll get one of the many terrorist groups he sponsers to deliver it for him, right to the heart of NY or Chicago.

[Navaron]

"THere is the chance top disarm Iraq/Saddam without War... u can�t say NO.... this is stupid very stupid.... the US never brought a proof if there are weapons... with the proofs the US brought u can�t evidence an egg-thief that e has stolen some eggs."

Either you turn an intentional blind eye to the facts all over, or you have succumbed to the mass "popular" belief that nothing produced against Iraq is enough to take action.

[Gortha]

Inspectors watched the disarming 12 years this is right.... in this time 95 % of all Weapons of MassDestruction were destroyed!

Now there are 5 % and nobody knows what is with this weapons... because the Iraq kicked the Inspectors out of !their! country.

In the last weeks Iraq works better and better togehter with the Inspectors.

Same Question to u MrVicchio.... Why is it a bad idea, to give the inspectors the time to disarm Iraq or checking if there are weapons istead of killin many People with a War?

[Navaron]

"Inspectors watched the disarming 12 years this is right.... in this time 95 % of all Weapons of MassDestruction were destroyed!"

Not only is this not true, it's a blatent lie and huge piece of propaganda you have gleefully swallowed. I thought you were the fact man?

[Mtx]

And little girls are raped by older men and family members in Brazil.

What's your point?

You steal in Egypt and they'll cut your hand off. It's the middle east. They aren't what most would consider civilized. Saddam is a bit extreme but no less merciless than the rest of those wackos.