Some random thoughts on air combat in PS2

[Tatwi]

Originally Posted by elfailo

Scythe has the advantage in turreting because of its horizontal maneuverability - strafe speed. The reason for this is that yaw is now on A & D, no longer controlled with Mouse_X. Not that it will make a lot of difference if they keep TTK's this low though.

I've been wondering if this horizontal movement ability would allow us to do a Zurabatic Cartwheel. This is the only video of I could find (it's from 1951). Move to 2:20.

Alternately, imaging rolling out while losing forward momentum such that you are doing a tumbling roll to the side. Continue this move and you'd do an entire circle. This would be nifty for getting on to someone's tail who is behind you: Tumble/roll out while dropping airspeed and altitude, level out, boost back on to their tale. I can't wait to try that.

[LegioX]

As i discussed in another thread, we need better "look behind" views. This stopping the cockpit view at 90 degrees is uncalled for. Let us look atleast behind us some to see what is on our butts.

[meiam]

tbh I doubt we"ll see any dogfigthing, it simply make no sense, there's 3 reason to board an aircraft in PS2:

1) take out enemy galaxy. In this case dogfighting is pointless has it's much faster to just go straight for the galaxy, blow it up and die afterward. The time spent trying to deal with escort is enough for galaxy to get to it's destination. If the scale of map was much much larger, then you could have advanced escort, but the map is just too small compared to the aircraft speed.

2) Taking out infantry, at the end of the day you win by taking over facility. Aircraft can help in different way. They can attack incoming convoy/reinforcement, which again if there even protected by aircraft, it'll be better to just ignore escort and concentrate on the troops. They can spot galaxy that re spawn troops and take them out. They can just act as gunship and go around killing infantry/vehicule. Since you have to specialize you're aircraft, you'll know you're going to lose in AA when you're outfitted for AG, so you'll just focus on not getting killed, NC can just absorb more and run away, VS can outmaneuver, TR can outrun.

3) Protecting ground force, like I said this is probably going to be the least efficient way to play, someone mentioned the prevalence of AA gun, especially flak, so large number of ground troops will be death for any aircraft (especially with friendly fire) and the distance out in the open is just too small. The only way I could see it make sense would be to patrol for incoming aircraft to reinforce contested area, in which case TR will rule there.

[LegioX]

Originally Posted by meiam

tbh I doubt we"ll see any dogfigthing, it simply make no sense, there's 3 reason to board an aircraft in PS2:

1) take out enemy galaxy. In this case dogfighting is pointless has it's much faster to just go straight for the galaxy, blow it up and die afterward. The time spent trying to deal with escort is enough for galaxy to get to it's destination. If the scale of map was much much larger, then you could have advanced escort, but the map is just too small compared to the aircraft speed.

2) Taking out infantry, at the end of the day you win by taking over facility. Aircraft can help in different way. They can attack incoming convoy/reinforcement, which again if there even protected by aircraft, it'll be better to just ignore escort and concentrate on the troops. They can spot galaxy that re spawn troops and take them out. They can just act as gunship and go around killing infantry/vehicule. Since you have to specialize you're aircraft, you'll know you're going to lose in AA when you're outfitted for AG, so you'll just focus on not getting killed, NC can just absorb more and run away, VS can outmaneuver, TR can outrun.

3) Protecting ground force, like I said this is probably going to be the least efficient way to play, someone mentioned the prevalence of AA gun, especially flak, so large number of ground troops will be death for any aircraft (especially with friendly fire) and the distance out in the open is just too small. The only way I could see it make sense would be to patrol for incoming aircraft to reinforce contested area, in which case TR will rule there.

1) How are the galaxy's going to survive when they keep getting shot down by other air? Oh yeah, thats right. Air support.

2)/3) How do you take out other AC chewing up your ground forces? Yep thats right other AC. So points 1-3 are irrelevant.

[meiam]

Originally Posted by LegioX

1) How are the galaxy's going to survive when they keep getting shot down by other air? Oh yeah, thats right. Air support.

2)/3) How do you take out other AC chewing up your ground forces? Yep thats right other AC. So points 1-3 are irrelevant.

Like I said, the distance vs aircraft speed make most escort pointless (this could change in beta with number tweak and if galaxy are insanely resistant), but you either have advance escort, in which case the time it take them to find the treat and converge on it is enough for the threat to reach the galaxy or you have close escort, in which case the threat is already on the galaxy.

I didn't say nobody would protect ground force with aircraft, I said they wouldn't do any dogfighting, they would just concentrate on not getting shoot down while still taking out ground force, and then just retreat when low on health. Maybe you could see some dogfighting when AC protect air to ground outfitted AC.

[LegioX]

In my experience with other games, people who intend to "mow the lawn" all game trying to get easy ground kills are the easiest people to shoot down, while your in a air-to-air AC type of role.

If you have good escorts for a galaxy there will be no way in hell they can get to the main "flying targets" without suffering massive losses. You set up close escort support around the galaxy's then you provide BARCAP ahead of the main group. Force the enemy AC to get low, while the main force fly's overhead.

[Vexus]

Originally Posted by Bobby Shaftoe

Seen it pushing 465 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptGe-...tailpage#t=33s

Good catch. Thanks.

[MrMorton]

Originally Posted by Tatwi

I've been wondering if this horizontal movement ability would allow us to do a Zurabatic Cartwheel. This is the only video of I could find (it's from 1951). Move to 2:20.

Alternately, imaging rolling out while losing forward momentum such that you are doing a tumbling roll to the side. Continue this move and you'd do an entire circle. This would be nifty for getting on to someone's tail who is behind you: Tumble/roll out while dropping airspeed and altitude, level out, boost back on to their tale. I can't wait to try that.

the issue with a move like that in a game is that it requires a fairly complex flight model to simulate how an aircraft stalls, sorry to crush your hopes of doing those types of maneuvers, but the flight model probably will not allow for it

Originally Posted by meiam

Like I said, the distance vs aircraft speed make most escort pointless (this could change in beta with number tweak and if galaxy are insanely resistant), but you either have advance escort, in which case the time it take them to find the treat and converge on it is enough for the threat to reach the galaxy or you have close escort, in which case the threat is already on the galaxy.

I didn't say nobody would protect ground force with aircraft, I said they wouldn't do any dogfighting, they would just concentrate on not getting shoot down while still taking out ground force, and then just retreat when low on health. Maybe you could see some dogfighting when AC protect air to ground outfitted AC.

you forget that there is a resource cost to deploying these aircraft, so you won't be able to just pump out aircraft every time you get taken out. If your scythe squadron can destroy that reaver squad 2 or 3 times, that reaver squad is GONE for the next hour or so, giving you complete air superiority over NC, because with dogfighting you will actually be able to kill the opponent, and have it really take them out of the fight.

Of course that relies on a good balance between resource cost and survivability.

now of course as I said, the reaver in particular should be able to possibly just ignore the furball around them and focus on the objective.

[ParisTeta]

I do understand the reasoning behind the 20/70% Rule (what are the other 10 % though?), but energy build up in WWII Sims (guess WWI too) is alot harder then it will be in Planetside, and i have always a few vs few or many vs many in my head and not 1 vs 1. That`s why i guesstimate that there is a risk of stagnant aircombat, with neither side doing something.

It`s all well in Infantry vs Air, like Infantry can stop the attack, but not the aircraft, while aircraft can take some hits from Infantry, but not ignore them.

The question i ask is that ok for air vs air, or do we need a tighter balance?

When something needs more skill, to be more effective or even being equal effective, is a bad design for a game. Good design, easy to learn, hard to master, but right now vanu seems to be hard to learn, very hard to master, super strength in very very narrow field.

Though i understand your opinion, and while i disagree, i still find it valid to discuss.

One last question, who would barrelrolling Mossie vs Scyth look like, especially there is no energy lost. Mossi barrels rolles to not overshoot and loos speed while Scyth barrels rolls to force overshoot and getting gun solution.

My guess, Mossie afterburns away, but i`m not 100% sure.

To other poster, intercept speed, air escort, and Galaxy thoughness will be quite an interessting topic. First, there won`t be so many galaxies spawns, so there is a clear area to cover, giving alot of intercept time if someone cares for that. Making them deprart, runing there drop is also quite an advantage, the "kill" is not the only victory. (Local) Air Suppority is a very good defense against Interception, so we`ll se how that works in Beta.

And it`s not only Galaxies vs Fighters, there are also Liberators, who are quite devastating.

[ArcIyte]

I was hoping we would have actual dogfighting. I don't think we will since aircraft seem to behave like PS1's "flying camera".

[Sabot]

Achieving air superiority I think is going to be very important. Just ignoring enmy air cav doesn't sound like a very sound tactic tbh. But hey... free kills for me if you indeed do. It's going to be a lot easier to shake incoming missiles and fire from AA weapons than shaking a fighter that's on your ass....

[TurelSun]

Originally Posted by meiam

Like I said, the distance vs aircraft speed make most escort pointless (this could change in beta with number tweak and if galaxy are insanely resistant), but you either have advance escort, in which case the time it take them to find the treat and converge on it is enough for the threat to reach the galaxy or you have close escort, in which case the threat is already on the galaxy.

I didn't say nobody would protect ground force with aircraft, I said they wouldn't do any dogfighting, they would just concentrate on not getting shoot down while still taking out ground force, and then just retreat when low on health. Maybe you could see some dogfighting when AC protect air to ground outfitted AC.

You will find people dogfighting just because that is what they want to do.

Right, you could make the argument that their time would be better spent strafing ground targets or whatever, but thats kind of like telling snipers that their efforts would be better spent in a different role. People are going to fit air-to-air and dogfight because they find that appealing, not just because its is useful(or not useful as you are saying). The experience points and other players flying aircraft will fuel this area just like any other part of the game.

You're right, in a strictly objective play, it may end up being more effective to simply go for your target. However, I would point out that taking out those objectives as soon as they become apparent will mean having pilots in the sky already to intercept them. If that is a Galaxy, or flight of Liberators, that means the quickest way to counter them will be to have air-to-air fitted aircraft who are already flying, intercept them. When there aren't Liberators or Galaxies to be shot down, those people will be attempting to shoot each other down.

[MrMorton]

Originally Posted by ParisTeta

I do understand the reasoning behind the 20/70% Rule (what are the other 10 % though?), but energy build up in WWII Sims (guess WWI too) is alot harder then it will be in Planetside, and i have always a few vs few or many vs many in my head and not 1 vs 1. That`s why i guesstimate that there is a risk of stagnant aircombat, with neither side doing something.

It`s all well in Infantry vs Air, like Infantry can stop the attack, but not the aircraft, while aircraft can take some hits from Infantry, but not ignore them.

The question i ask is that ok for air vs air, or do we need a tighter balance?

When something needs more skill, to be more effective or even being equal effective, is a bad design for a game. Good design, easy to learn, hard to master, but right now vanu seems to be hard to learn, very hard to master, super strength in very very narrow field.

Though i understand your opinion, and while i disagree, i still find it valid to discuss.

One last question, who would barrelrolling Mossie vs Scyth look like, especially there is no energy lost. Mossi barrels rolles to not overshoot and loos speed while Scyth barrels rolls to force overshoot and getting gun solution.

My guess, Mossie afterburns away, but i`m not 100% sure.

To other poster, intercept speed, air escort, and Galaxy thoughness will be quite an interessting topic. First, there won`t be so many galaxies spawns, so there is a clear area to cover, giving alot of intercept time if someone cares for that. Making them deprart, runing there drop is also quite an advantage, the "kill" is not the only victory. (Local) Air Suppority is a very good defense against Interception, so we`ll se how that works in Beta.

And it`s not only Galaxies vs Fighters, there are also Liberators, who are quite devastating.

haha little typo there, 30%

the thing is from what I have heard the speed cap means the the mosquito is always going to be faster than the other aircraft.

So rather than being good at gaining and maintaining energy, the mossie will ALWAYS have an E advantage over the other aircraft, no matter the situation (unless you have no afterburners and your opponent does). I would be inclined to exploit that advantage as a tr, especially since the reaver is far more capable as a turreting craft.

as for air vs infantry, I feel that role (with the exception to the reaver) will be largley left to the liberator just because the ttk for the NC and VS fighters is very low.

as far as the skill thing goes, it is just a different type of skill, and one I think fits nicely with the faction's other playstyles.

TR will need very good timing and coordination skills between multiple squadrons, and within the squadron, where as the VS will put more stress on individual pilot skills. Good teamwork IS a skill, and a very hard one to master.

as for barrel rolls, like you said you lose no energy when doing them, so doing a barrel role with some yaw will have no effect other than throwing off the opponent's aim unless you decelerate at the same time, where as vs will probably just jinx from side to side and instantly slow down.

the meta between the galaxies/libs vs the fighters will be interesting as the fighters are what gains air superiority, but the galaxies/libs are the benefits you gain by having it.

[Pillar of Armor]

Dogfights are gonna happen. It happened in PS1, (though they were awkward) it will happen again.

[LegioX]

Wish they would put a FPS/Flight sim hybrid in this game. That would be epic...oh well.