Everybody gets to drive everything? WTF?

[Rivenshield]

Originally Posted by Notturno

I think capping the maximum specialization to a specific percentage of the overall content is a great way to offer veterans an opportunity to feel empowered as long time players, without giving them an option for every single situation that can occur within the game. I believe you also open up the ability to potentially have a "re-certification" process, in which players sacrifice their current certifications in a particular tree, then re-earn the certifications to invest them somewhere else. It gives a potentially infinite progression system where players are always able to "re-cert" into their ideal play style, but they have to earn those certifications by playing.

Me three. There are fanbois out there who will blow massive gobs of dough -- at least as much as they spend on renting game modules for their Wii -- to be the best at everything faster than everybody else. It won't be years until they max out; it will be a few MONTHS. And there will be plenty of them.

There needs to be a hard cap, and there needs to be some sort of mechanism whereby they can surrender certs and pick up others.

[Figment]

@Daemonn: was confused with what you were talking about.

Did I play Ps1? Played since 2004. Perma-sub since 2005 with about 12 months missing.

[BillyBob]

Originally Posted by Figment

*snip*

Sorry, don't have time for internet crusaders who are more or less just arguing for arguments sake.

I've stated time and time again that these were only my speculations as to why I think SOE is going the way they seemingly are with the certifications system. Furthermore, all I've said is based on official statements as well, making my guesses (because that's all they are at this point) just as valid as yours.

However, you can't seem to comprehend this simple fact and instead seem hellbent on "proving" me "wrong", even though there's nothing to prove.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I actually do have more important things to do than to get into pseudo-arguments, kindergarten semantics and silly prestige contests with someone who can't even realize the basic difference between well-founded established facts and pure personal speculation.

Due to this, I've used this forums ignore function on you. Please feel free to do the same on me...I would take it as a compliment.

/BB

[Figment]

Wow. Ignoring based on having a difference of opinion and pointing out hypocrisy within his speculation without even bothering to put up a defense. Then why post his own opinion if it is not to be critiqued?

Going "NANANANANANANAANA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" is so unlike-kindergarten though... Oh well, that's the level of argument people: get countered, different scenario "IGNORE!".

I suppose it's childish to take the time to take someone's speculation or opinion serious enough to post a reply though!

Brilliant. Mature. Ignoring all people with an opposite opinion in a discussion is the perfect way to retain pink goggles and pretend your argument is never under need of scrutiny. But hey, he'll never read this till this gets quoted.

[stalkish]

Originally Posted by Figment

Wow. Ignoring based on having a difference of opinion and pointing out hypocrisy within his speculation without even bothering to put up a defense. Then why post his own opinion if it is not to be critiqued?

Going "NANANANANANANAANA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" is so unlike-kindergarten though... Oh well, that's the level of argument people: get countered, different scenario "IGNORE!".

I suppose it's childish to take the time to take someone's speculation or opinion serious enough to post a reply though!

Brilliant. Mature. Ignoring all people with an opposite opinion in a discussion is the perfect way to retain pink goggles and pretend your argument is never under need of scrutiny. But hey, he'll never read this till this gets quoted.

[BillyBob]

Originally Posted by Rivenshield

Me three. There are fanbois out there who will blow massive gobs of dough -- at least as much as they spend on renting game modules for their Wii -- to be the best at everything faster than everybody else. It won't be years until they max out; it will be a few MONTHS. And there will be plenty of them.

There needs to be a hard cap, and there needs to be some sort of mechanism whereby they can surrender certs and pick up others.

For all we know, there could already be some sort of mechanism like that in the game...or at least something that has a somewhat similar effect on player/item progression.

I seem to remember some devs talking about how certain things will not be accessible by purchase, but that you'd only be able to earn those points the "old fashioned way" so to speak.

At this time, we don't know the exact stage at which all specific items can be unlocked, or what their individual cost in certpoints is...let alone which ones are open to shortcuts via purchase.

We also don't know the long-term strategy as far as new lock-ups and certpoints are concerned. What we've seen so far, suggests that there are tons of them...but who know how many of those options will be available from day one of launch and how many will be added later...and at what pace?

Needless to say, depending on how all these factors and parameters are distributed within the system and the overall timeframe in terms of its implementation, could also be crucial to its effects on overall player progression...and also have this effect vary greatly depending on how you tweak it.

We simply know too little at this time to draw any conclusions, let alone pass any reasonably sound judgment on how it will eventually pan out in game.

As someone else pointed out, we'll just have to wait until beta.

/BB

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by Figment

All in all agree, but this part should read this:

"Players who don't tend to like flying won't fly unless they need fast transport, while players who are playing defense and hold will tend to use them en mass."

Well the fast transport issue is why I tend to be concerned about ATV's being useless. Mostly because ATV's are so fragile. At least with Galaxies and especially Sunderers, you will have a lot more armor than in aircav.

As for MAXes, I really don't see it being a huge issue. Players who hate using them will still hate using them even in defensive situations, and players who are okay with using them will use them situationally. If the enemy has a ton of MAXes, it will make it that much easier for you to counter them with anti-MAX weapons. I don't see them getting overused, or making another class be underused in the same way I'm worried about with ATV's and aircav. If MAXes do end up too useful and overused, that's something that a few tweaks could solve as well.

Personally, I'm fine with BR40 except for the fact that the first Planetside wasn't well balanced for it. Things like Adv Medic, Adv hacking and Combat Engineering used to be balanced out by the fact that if you took all of those certs at BR20, you wouldn't have a lot of room left to cert in too much else. With BR40, you can cert in lots of support certs while still having enough room to diversify your character in a lot of other ways.

There are two ways to fix the BR40 problem in PS2. You either decide to never ever raise the level cap (or it's equivalent), or you embrace the problems head on and balance the game to incorporate them into a balanced structure. PS2 opts for the latter.

It's the same as with Orbital Strikes. In the first game, it was assumed early on that they would be a rare thing, but eventually pretty much everyone has them. There is no downside now, since if you waste yours now, someone else will probably have one for the next enemy AMS that gets spotted. PS2 seems to be looking at balancing them against the possibility that everyone will have them eventually, which is good.

So in Planetside 2, we'll all be able to access the basic (basic still being effective) versions of all classes and vehicles right from the start, and we'll potentially all have access to every side/upgraded version of them down the road. The difference is that the entire game is being designed around this dynamic, instead of using limited progress as a balancing factor. In PS2, the equivalent of a BR20 will be no more able to use every support ability at once than the equivalent of a BR40 will be able to, and orbital strikes will be a costly decision no matter if you are a career commander or someone who just certed up the command tree to get the OS option.

Certainly the first Planetside was balanced around what an individual could do over a period of time instead of each life, but this isn't Planetside. Planetside 2 is very similar in a lot of ways, and very different in others, and I don't think that this particular change is a bad one.

Ideally, specialization will provide a nice carrot on a stick to unlocking more customization options over time, while never giving much of a straight upgrade to ones overall ability to help out on the battlefield. In this sense, I think PS2 will be better than PS1, since a BR5 was significantly less useful than a BR20 was. Over the course of several lives, any player of any level will be able to fill every major role, but I can't think of one game off the top of my head where this was a bad thing. It's not like we'll be able to switch roles every time we are revived in the middle of combat. This is the equivalent of logging out and logging back in with an alt in any other MMO, except streamlined and sped up to match with PS2's faster pacing. I think it just fits better with Planetside 2's FPS heritage in this case, instead of going with it's slower RPG heritage like the first game did in this regard.

I just think the freedom for anyone to freely switch between every class and vehicle will do more good than harm. I'd rather there be a reason to take LA over a MAX, or an ATV over aircav, based purely on the classes and vehicles own merits.

[Kezz]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

I seem to remember some devs talking about how certain things will not be accessible by purchase, but that you'd only be able to earn those points the "old fashioned way" so to speak.

You're right, I think. The intention does seem to be that certs, per se will not be for sale in the cash shop. I believe the "gobs of cash" will only be useful to acquire Certs in that they will allow you to permanently have XP boosters running. So, there's the "old fashioned way", and the "monied individual's" way of earning points. But if it's supposed to take 2 years to get 90% of the certs, that's just 1 year for someone permanently under the effects of a doubler. If bigger XP boosters are available, proportionately less.

Edit: and as has been said, there's a difference between "all the certs" and "all the certs you could ever actually want to use". /edit

Perhaps SOE are intending Certpoint gain to be so slow that nearly everyone will be buying a booster. Kindof a voluntary subscription.

[Flaropri]

Originally Posted by Figment

Brilliant. Mature. Ignoring all people with an opposite opinion in a discussion is the perfect way to retain pink goggles and pretend your argument is never under need of scrutiny.

If it works for Politicians and media pundits...

[Ipimpnoobs]

Originally Posted by Rivenshield

Maybe I'm just being a reactionary old fart, but this puts me slightly off my feed.

In all modern FPS's anyone can jump into a tank, a chopper, a jet, etc.... but that's for battles that rarely last for more than ten minutes, and then the map resets. In a persistent game like Planetside, I'd kinda like to see us stick with the old system. You get a few free certs to start off with, but you have to make a commitment of sorts. You have to choose whether to spawn or drive a given class of vehicle.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

And on a related note: I have looked, but cannot find, any news on whether or not PS2 will allow us to re-spec our certs. Can we or can't we? or is this another Wait Until Beta issue?

First off, the certification system is almost exact to eve online. There will always be an accessibility cert which should take you about 10mins of game play to gain. But, in order for one account to unlock all specializations to their maximum potential, it will take a player roughly 7 years of playing. An example is as follows
Gun A damage output Cert
level 1 Dmg increase 1% Cost 1 cert point
lvl 2, 5% Cost 3 cert points
lvl 3, 8% Cost 5 cert points
lvl 4, 10% Cost 10 cert points
lvl 5, 15% Cost 20 cert points (just this cert lvl will take 3 hours and 33mins to get)

1 cert point is averaged at roughly ~10mins of direct game play (source Total Biscuit video). Currently offline cert point accumulation not known. (The above data is fictitious to show how the cert points work.)

As you can see from the above information to be effective, you will need to have multiple accounts with different specializations for the same faction. For instance...(account = acct) acct 1: Eng, Medic, All main attack vehicle Pilot; acct 2: Leadership, Light assault, heavy infantry; acct 3: max and infiltrator. (there may be cross certifications so keep in mind this is an example). I'm no math expert but this will cut at least 30% off of that 7 year duration to max cap a char.

This means you will not see everyone in a tank, even though they have the ability to get one, if the resource pool meets that quota. They can be easily be countered. And, since they did not specialize in the vehicle, a competent smaller fully certified reactionary force will make quick work of them. See the e3 video where Higby is fighting a vanu armor column that has no air support in a reaver. There is so much more, I can tell you but you'll really have to see it for yourself.

No, you will not be able to respec. This is the game equalizer. Choices you make will have a long lasting effect. If you play more, then you can quickly fix any mistake, for instance, perhaps you chose a weapon that wasn't quite what you expected. Choose your main wisely or be flexible with your account name by creating more the then one by doing the following: acctusername1, acctusername2 and acctusername3 with email address to follow suit. I would even go as afar as to say to do the same thing with your passwords.

Trust me when I say, you will have multiple accounts otherwise you'll be very sad when 7 years rolls around and one of your main chars finally caps and planet-side 3 comes out only to do it all again.

My 2 cents is this will make PS2 population count swell to a point that this game will easily go platinum within a matter of months after release.

In conclusion, I absolutely do not feel the same way as you. You will understand only when you see the amount of time it takes to cap a skill, then you'll be like OHHHH I get it. Add that with being at war with 1332 players trying to kill you and you will get Holy shhhzam I need a PS2 T Ray VANU autographed diaper..this game is gonna be epic. Oh and If your thinking about lone wolfing it....your going to be very sad my friend...very sad.

[Redshift]

The only issue i've got with it so far is i feel the prowlers main guns should be passenger only, otherwise there's no distinction between the MBT and the lightning

[VaderShake]

Some great points shared here....all I have to say is if your talking about a potential problem 3+ years from now...well...that's not to shabby.

[Pvt Badger]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

For all we know, there could already be some sort of mechanism like that in the game...or at least something that has a somewhat similar effect on player/item progression.

I seem to remember some devs talking about how certain things will not be accessible by purchase, but that you'd only be able to earn those points the "old fashioned way" so to speak.

At this time, we don't know the exact stage at which all specific items can be unlocked, or what their individual cost in certpoints is...let alone which ones are open to shortcuts via purchase.

We also don't know the long-term strategy as far as new lock-ups and certpoints are concerned. What we've seen so far, suggests that there are tons of them...but who know how many of those options will be available from day one of launch and how many will be added later...and at what pace?

Needless to say, depending on how all these factors and parameters are distributed within the system and the overall timeframe in terms of its implementation, could also be crucial to its effects on overall player progression...and also have this effect vary greatly depending on how you tweak it.

We simply know too little at this time to draw any conclusions, let alone pass any reasonably sound judgment on how it will eventually pan out in game.

As someone else pointed out, we'll just have to wait until beta.

/BB

Without breaking NDA, I can tell you that I felt odd about some Cert Costs.

Also guys, The current Cert System handles well, imho. Won't go too far but Vehicles and Certs are well balanced. As mentioned in the streams at E3 you gain Certs without even playing. Now you might immediately jump on the "I hate this" wagon but fear not. Things are going great in the beta and we're waiting for you guys to join the fun. With the current number of players battles are fierce and with more... Everything will be more epic. Just find what seems to work for you and stick to that. I know I have. I just have to learn to aim on the move.

Originally Posted by Redshift

The only issue i've got with it so far is i feel the prowlers main guns should be passenger only, otherwise there's no distinction between the MBT and the lightning

Wait until you're under fire. There's a difference.

[Redshift]

Originally Posted by Pvt Badger

Wait until you're under fire. There's a difference.

Nah there really isn't, there's no point in the lightning atm because the MBT is essentially the same but slightly bigger.

[andehh]

And slower, and more powerful and better protected (about to get a boost armour wise as well), and with the additional anti personnel machine gun, and more accurate.... the list goes on.

There is room in game for them both.

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