Knife Kills

[Shylan]

Originally Posted by therandomone

Not this. Why does people want to nerf the knife? I hated the way Counterstrike did it because its like i was paper cutting you to death with it. The idea of making the knife that weak is asinine.

I never said to bring it down to a level where it's ineffective, only that it shouldn't be a one-hit-kill weapon, like it seems to be in most FPS games these days. I'd be fine with it if infiltrators got a cert for a more powerful knife strike in order to quickly and effectively take down lone enemies who don't see them coming, but someone with a knife shouldn't be able to just charge in and kill someone with a gun like its nothing at all.

[Helwyr]

Originally Posted by Shylan

I never said to bring it down to a level where it's ineffective, only that it shouldn't be a one-hit-kill weapon, like it seems to be in most FPS games these days. I'd be fine with it if infiltrators got a cert for a more powerful knife strike in order to quickly and effectively take down lone enemies who don't see them coming, but someone with a knife shouldn't be able to just charge in and kill someone with a gun like its nothing at all.

Fair enough, it's not like players like myself which used the knife want it to be anything other than balanced, I'd likely hate OP knifing as much as you, as part of it's appeal is that very few actually used the knife in PS1... including infiltrators, most of whom used pistols or boomers to kill with as they were in most circumstances the most effective in killing a single target or two.

I dislike you trying to define and limit what an infiltrator can or cannot do with a knife... such as "kill lone enemies" (I used to kill as many as 4 in a single continuous fight) If I can sneak up to hand 2 hand range and have certed heavily in the knife I expect to do some serious damage with that weapon (compared with other PS2 weapons) where I can land it. I also expect that should one of the enemy be able to land shots on me in an infiltration suit with an assault rifle I'll go down just as quick.

[Shylan]

Originally Posted by Helwyr

I dislike you trying to define and limit what an infiltrator can or cannot do with a knife...

That was more of an example, than anything. I didn't mean it as the one and only situation an infiltrator can possibly succeed in with a knife. If the person playing the infiltrator can sneak up on a group of enemies, de-cloak, kill one, re-cloak, re-position, de-cloak again, kill another one, re-cloak again, and rinse and repeat until they're all down, then that's fine. It's when knifers can just charge in without a plan or any kind of cover or concealment and kill an entire squad that annoys the crap out of me.

[Helwyr]

Originally Posted by Shylan

That was more of an example, than anything. I didn't mean it as the one and only situation an infiltrator can possibly succeed in with a knife. If the person playing the infiltrator can sneak up on a group of enemies, de-cloak, kill one, re-cloak, re-position, de-cloak again, kill another one, re-cloak again, and rinse and repeat until they're all down, then that's fine. It's when knifers can just charge in without a plan or any kind of cover or concealment and kill an entire squad that annoys the crap out of me.

There's no out of stealth backstab damage bonus in PS, at least there wasn't in PS1. So not sure why you're using this example of cloak, attack, recloak, attack again. The main reason I was able to kill multiple enemies with the knife is that they were focused on targets other than me, and typically using Sniper and AV weaponry. Unlike, pistols which would have given away my presence on the first or second shot the knife made only a hum that was easily drowned out by other battlefield noises. So unless they were paying attention to those around them or all on voice coms, they didn't often realize their faction mate next to them was being gutted.

If some non infiltrator somehow manages to charge you without you being able to shoot him down before he reaches you they should have a good chance of killing you with their knife.

As an infiltrator your invisible if moving slowly so cover isn't 100% necessary. In PS1 is was still a good idea to use cover as many players could see you either by legitimate means like Darklight and Audio Amp, or from hacks or gamma manipulation.

[Shylan]

Originally Posted by Helwyr

So not sure why you're using this example of cloak, attack, recloak, attack again.

Again, another example of not being a knife-wielding Rambo, and actually using a more strategic approach than just hack-and-slash and hope you survive.

Originally Posted by Helwyr

The main reason I was able to kill multiple enemies with the knife is that they were focused on targets other than me, and typically using Sniper and AV weaponry.

That cuts it close to being Rambo-with-a-knife, but doing that only really irks me when someone gets up in your face to knife you and your team mates, and manages to get away with it, thanks to 'knife beats gun every time' close-quarters mechanics. I hate situations in FPS games when you have a gun, but can't seem to land a shot on someone right in front of you at point-blank range when they have a knife and a bit of maneuverability, because the developers didn't take the balance and mechanics of extremely close gunplay into consideration as much as they should have.

[Helwyr]

Originally Posted by Shylan

That cuts it close to being Rambo-with-a-knife, but doing that only really irks me when someone gets up in your face to knife you and your team mates, and manages to get away with it, thanks to 'knife beats gun every time' close-quarters mechanics. I hate situations in FPS games when you have a gun, but can't seem to land a shot on someone right in front of you at point-blank range when they have a knife and a bit of maneuverability, because the developers didn't take the balance and mechanics of extremely close gunplay into consideration as much as they should have.

Well there's always going to be something that "irks" everyone about the game, but that alone is not a very solid justification for calls for changes in gameplay.

warning! real life analogy incoming

Your face to face with an opponent in grappling range, which weapon do you want, a bolt action rifle, LAW anti tank launcher, or combat knife?

Game Balance question:

To make up for a weapon having pretty much zero range and no splash or ae damage, what advantages should it have?

..Oh and I did get away with it most of the time... does that make me Rambo?

[Shylan]

Originally Posted by Helwyr

Your face to face with an opponent in grappling range, which weapon do you want, a bolt action rifle, LAW anti tank launcher, or combat knife?

I think a more appropriate question would be: You're on a battlefield, and you're within grappling distance of someone with a knife. Provided you can't draw your own knife in time, which weapon do you want for both accuracy and stopping power at point-blank range: a Glock 17, an M4A3 carbine, or an M249 light machine gun?

Any one of those should be able to get the job done easily, but 90% of the time in FPS games, they're virtually useless at hitting anything smaller and more mobile than a than cargo container at distances of less than 5 meters/yards.

[Teflon Jon]

My opinion on the knife is they should be able to insta kill said infiltrators and light assault. Makes perfect sense them being not very armored and being close enough for a knife attack should warrant some armor penetration. Though that could be just from the back. I don't feel as if they knife should just be used as a 'panic' weapon. True I don't think the knife should be able to successfully take down a MAX with just one knife. But I think say a group of infiltrators who wanted to sneak into base could take down light armored targets with single knives, and say for heavy assault maybe 2-3 people stabbing at him will take him down. My thoughts would be for an infiltrator or said group who would want to sneak in, take down targets without drawing attention from gunfire. That's just my said rant.
Def don't think there should be a panic button that makes you swing the knife and kill whatever target you have in front of you. But the aspect of sneaking up on a base and taking out some key targets prior to an assault would be beneficial.

[therandomone]

Originally Posted by Shylan

I think a more appropriate question would be: You're on a battlefield, and you're within grappling distance of someone with a knife. Provided you can't draw your own knife in time, which weapon do you want for both accuracy and stopping power at point-blank range: a Glock 17, an M4A3 carbine, or an M249 light machine gun?

Any one of those should be able to get the job done easily, but 90% of the time in FPS games, they're virtually useless at hitting anything smaller and more mobile than a than cargo container at distances of less than 5 meters/yards.

I understand what you're saying/going for. Granted in your example, if I'm in grappling distance (means close enough to grapple you) you're going to be dead before you can draw your weapon. So really, at that point, you could have the BFG but it won't matter as my knife will already be in you at that point.

[NakedMoleTonka]

u guys are forgetting two things: stop argueing with eacother until ur in beta and see it for yourself, and it cant cert to be a lot better, they have said nothing can cert to be anything more than 20% more powerful. so dont think that you can cert to be a one hit kill.

[therandomone]

Originally Posted by NakedMoleTonka

u guys are forgetting two things: stop argueing with eacother until ur in beta and see it for yourself, and it cant cert to be a lot better, they have said nothing can cert to be anything more than 20% more powerful. so dont think that you can cert to be a one hit kill.

Errr,you haven't read much of this thread have you? Also, do you have a source for this 20% thing? Besides the fact that part of the reason we are arguing is because some of us feel that a cloaked, from behind, knife attack should be 1 hit kill.

[PlaceboCyanide]

the 20% thing was an offhand comment made several times throughout the streams. It was usually the response when people asked if PS2 would become pay2win and how hard it would be for newbies to fight vets.

Also, as evidenced by the video streams, it appears the knife mechanics are nearly identical to Tribes:Ascend. Even if the knife with bonus dmg cert is not a 1 hit kill (and it most likely will be against infiltrators & light assault) you will be able to stab a second time before most people can respond.

I think the biggest hurdle that knife-lovers will have is taking down MAX units, and Heavy Assault. MAX units have a ton of health/armor, but turn slowly, so it is conceivable to bring a lone max down if someone were to side-strafe them just right. Heavy Assault on the other hand- if the person has very good reflexes and the knife doesn't kill in 1 hit- could turn on their personal shield, buying them time to respond.

[HorizonBound]

I peronally always though that Halo had the melee and sniping formula down perfectly. 2 shots to the body,1 to the head and 2 smack to kill. Ps2 should have the melees like that, 2 melees to kill light/inf, and shots plus 3 melee to kill heavies. Knifing MAXes shouldn't even be a viable option...

Also, I thnk that one-shot snipers are the worst thing ever to come to a shooter. You have no time to react to a sniper if you are dead.

[TNTNate]

Originally Posted by PlaceboCyanide

the 20% thing was an offhand comment made several times throughout the streams. It was usually the response when people asked if PS2 would become pay2win and how hard it would be for newbies to fight vets.

Also, as evidenced by the video streams, it appears the knife mechanics are nearly identical to Tribes:Ascend. Even if the knife with bonus dmg cert is not a 1 hit kill (and it most likely will be against infiltrators & light assault) you will be able to stab a second time before most people can respond.

I think the biggest hurdle that knife-lovers will have is taking down MAX units, and Heavy Assault. MAX units have a ton of health/armor, but turn slowly, so it is conceivable to bring a lone max down if someone were to side-strafe them just right. Heavy Assault on the other hand- if the person has very good reflexes and the knife doesn't kill in 1 hit- could turn on their personal shield, buying them time to respond.

This. Makes absolute sense. A big hulking target will still have some weaknesses, and an skilled Infiltrator should have a chance against any lone unit. Why you'd be a lone unit in a game like this is beyond me, as it's really asking for death in an embarrassing way

[Shylan]

Originally Posted by PlaceboCyanide

Also, as evidenced by the video streams, it appears the knife mechanics are nearly identical to Tribes:Ascend. Even if the knife with bonus dmg cert is not a 1 hit kill (and it most likely will be against infiltrators & light assault) you will be able to stab a second time before most people can respond.

That sounds promising. Do you have a link to or a rough idea of where, and in what video(s) the knifing mechanics can be seen? I'd like to take a look at that.

And for the record: I'm OK with being able to one-hit-kill an infiltrator or maybe a light assault with a knife, at least if you've got the advantage of surprise on your side. Being able to one-hit-killing someone with a gun by running straight at them with a knife and swinging like a madman isn't OK, though.

One possible way to balance it out would be to have higher locational damage from behind (not necessarily a good idea, though) or have cert for the infiltrator where it grants extra damage to the knife stroke if you manage to de-cloak right behind the enemy and stab them, or something. At least, just something that makes a frontal assault with a knife a far less safe or effective option.