Debunking some myths regarding PS1 playerbase demise.

[SpottyGekko]

Thanks Figment, that was a very good read

One issue which is apparent when you look at the PS1 history (and that PS2 may avoid), is the fact that significant problems were caused by new content that was added to the game via paid expansions.

PS1 had no Cash Shop, so new content had to be introduced in bundles via paid expansions. If you sell an expansion based heavily on something like BFR's, there's no going back. You cannot nerf the headline content (which everyone has paid money for) into oblivion. So you're stuck with it.

I'm assuming that new content in PS2 will be introduced in small increments and paid for via micro-transaction (if at all). If that new content needs serious re-balancing, refunding a small micro-transaction (by refunding Station Cash) is MUCH easier than giving back real money to thousands of players.

So PS2 has a lot more flexibility, and "bad" designs can be rolled back or redone with far less impact on the playerbase or SOE's cashflow.

[SixShooter]

Nice job man. That's a good history lesson with a lot of interesting info.

[Hunterzen]

Originally Posted by Klockan

It was a failure compared to the other games of SOE.


Yes, I said that in my post. My point however was that it wasn't a good game, it had a great concept though. If infantry combat was as good as UT99 with lots of viable but different weapons and great feel the game would have gotten really big, maybe even up around seven digits. The biggest problem with the mmo's wasn't that they were a niche it was that there were no good mmo games before wow. Planetside could have been the first good mmo and thus would have revolutionized peoples view on the mmo market but as it was that didn't happen.

Popularity doesn't always mean "good" Look at the new Call of Duty games hell look at Justin Bieber. "there were no good mmo games before wow." Sorry you don't know what you are talking about here. I could name plenty of awesome MMO's out before WoW, but Ill just type SWG preNGE/CU to prove my point.

[fod]

Originally Posted by Hunterzen

Popularity doesn't always mean "good" Look at the new Call of Duty games hell look at Justin Bieber. "there were no good mmo games before wow." Sorry you don't know what you are talking about here. I could name plenty of awesome MMO's out before WoW, but Ill just type SWG to prove my point.

yeah i agree and you can now add battlefield to popular but not good games (they sold out made it too much like COD with tiny maps)
WOW is a horrible mmo imo but its easy as hell to play - thats the only reason it got popular i think
also anarchy online was a ton better than WOW

[Archonzero]

Spot on Fig, there's a few so' so's to my interp on it, but the content/expac stuff was spot on.

Originally Posted by Canaris

you forgot to mention SOE stripping the PS1 dev talent pool and reassigning them to SWG, leaving a lot of.... well very DNA shallow pool ones to make do.

I was gonna make mention of this but Canaris did for me.

This led them releasing PS1 far earlier than they had projected (about 3-4 mnths early), tacked a sub fee onto it, then stripped the dev team to SWG. I personally know many players that unsubbed when they did that, knowing they were paying for a beta, with the funds going to another game development instead.

Came back later on to check out each expansion for 3-6mnth subs, hoping to see the game taking shape. While I have meritorious experiences of sheer scale of coordinated comradery an opposition. The holes in the game itself began to take too much of a toll.

While I liked the idea of a NEW vehicle type (BFR)) I hated the actual power/resilience and what they went with, sorry didn't like the entire Mechwarrior in PS1 idea, let alone scores of them per side (still shamelessly I piloted/gunned for one). Before they even came up with Core Combat (blergh) I was pushing the idea of a hybrid MAX/vehicle style unit, that had the power output of perhaps a Reaver mixed with a Tank/Sunderer's resilience, in around.

An yes, I recall BR20.. BR24 CR4 was my final ranking. I just couldn't handle the idea of BR40, there was no uniqueness to a character build. Just a field of do it all nostars.

So far, what I can say about the PS2 team. Is they seem to be on the ball, an really want to make this game work and remain progressive. Their involvement with the community, which as a game designer myself, IS there biggest collective for creative debate/brainstorming an I hope they stay in touch with both their playerbase an the beta test community (something they sorta dropped the ball on with the first one, so many of us were screaming for PS1 not to hit retail when it did, waaaay to many bugs/exploits not addressed), listen, but keep a distance on simply accepting all ideas.

In the end, they just need to look to Uncle Ben. "With great power, comes great responsibility!"

[Chrispin]

Very informative! This thread needs to stay in the PS2 section and I'd even say stickied (I know that won't happen though). Hopefully the PS2 team can learn from past mistakes. It looks like they already have a better advertising campaign.

[exLupo]

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth

You forgot something that lead to the breaking of the cert system.

Cert bundles.

While it doesn't exactly play into the life of PS, the cert tree simplification (less nesting and reduced costs) started near the end of beta. Shortly before launch, it was very much a game of specialists where every choice mattered because, even with max certs, you were fairly limited and had to choose between focused power or middling versatility.

The change stuck in my craw as I was afraid of what, ultimately, would come to pass.

[Klockan]

Originally Posted by Hunterzen

Popularity doesn't always mean "good" Look at the new Call of Duty games hell look at Justin Bieber. "there were no good mmo games before wow." Sorry you don't know what you are talking about here. I could name plenty of awesome MMO's out before WoW, but Ill just type SWG preNGE/CU to prove my point.

I didn't say that they weren't good as mmo, I said that they weren't good as games. SWG sucked as a game but it had a few interesting concepts to it, you can't judge a games quality by its featurelist. I have also never said that popularity equals quality, however they do correlate. The problem with people like you is that you can't differentiate between a game you like and a good game. You can dislike games for other reasons than it being bad, so you might prefer games built upon different concepts but that doesn't mean that the game is a pile of shit.

It is quite laughable though that you brought up the fad to dislike Justin Bieber, since you know just because "everyone" likes to hate that music doesn't make it bad either. I am not a music enthusiast so I don't really care much about every new artist like Bieber, but I know that the main reason people hate on music is not because it is bad but because it is in a genre conflicting with what they perceive to be their preferred genre. Most do that with games as well and just like in music people love hating on whats popular. "Oh look, I am special, I am one of the few who don't like WoW, CoD, BSB and Bieber!!!!", its pathetic really.

[Hunterzen]

Originally Posted by Klockan

I didn't say that they weren't good as mmo, I said that they weren't good as games. SWG sucked as a game but it had a few interesting concepts to it, you can't judge a games quality by its featurelist. I have also never said that popularity equals quality, however they do correlate. The problem with people like you is that you can't differentiate between a game you like and a good game. You can dislike games for other reasons than it being bad, so you might prefer games built upon different concepts but that doesn't mean that the game is a pile of shit.

It is quite laughable though that you brought up the fad to dislike Justin Bieber, since you know just because "everyone" likes to hate that music doesn't make it bad either. I am not a music enthusiast so I don't really care much about every new artist like Bieber, but I know that the main reason people hate on music is not because it is bad but because it is in a genre conflicting with what they perceive to be their preferred genre. Most do that with games as well and just like in music people love hating on whats popular. "Oh look, I am special, I am one of the few who don't like WoW, CoD, BSB and Bieber!!!!", its pathetic really.

WTH is your problem? Stop acting like your opinions on various games, music, assumptions of other people are facts and open your mind to other peoples perspectives with out calling them pathetic and laughable unless you want to come off as a pompous ass which you're doing very well. Literally every statement you said about me was an assumption, and every statement you said about various games is again YOUR opinion. You've lost my respect, and attention by your extreme ignorance and arrogance, and I look forward to hopefully shooting you in the face.

[BlueSkies]

Originally Posted by Klockan

The problem with people like you...

[bullet]

Why did you make all of those memories come back Fig? They hurt...so much. If only they paid attention to PS a little more back then.

[Haro]

Originally Posted by Hunterzen

WTH is your problem? Stop acting like your opinions on various games, music, assumptions of other people are facts and open your mind to other peoples perspectives with out calling them pathetic and laughable unless you want to come off as a pompous ass which you're doing very well. Literally every statement you said about me was an assumption, and every statement you said about various games is again YOUR opinion. You've lost my respect, and attention by your extreme ignorance and arrogance, and I look forward to hopefully shooting you in the face.

And yet you were grossly over-presumptive about your opinions as well. Believe it or not, many, many people like and enjoy call of duty, Justin Bieber, or whatever else. You not liking it doesn't make something bad, just as me or anyone else liking something doesn't necessarily make it good. There are times when you can point to things in a game that you can logically connect to bad gameplay: BFRs, for example, are one thing most people would objectively agree set the game back. Other things like shooter mechanics tend to be far more subjective, since they usually are equally applied to everyone, regardless of choice, whereas you have to choose things like weapons and vehicles, and therefore inherent imbalances may show up.

If you want to give your opinions weight and make them matter to other people, the give solid, rational reasons! Use critical thinking. If you don't like something in a game, ask WHY it matters before you take it at face value.

Also, please, let's not get caught up in emotions over this. Underneath some of his vitriol, for lack of a better word, Klockan makes good points that shouldn't be ignored. Let's all step back, take a deep breath, and continue this dicussion like rational people.

[ringring]

Originally Posted by SpottyGekko

Thanks Figment, that was a very good read

One issue which is apparent when you look at the PS1 history (and that PS2 may avoid), is the fact that significant problems were caused by new content that was added to the game via paid expansions.

.

TBH I think problems were caused by a lot of the new content paid or otherwise.

New stuff tended to be way overpowered and then was gradually nerfed to something reasonable.
example: the phantasm an invisible troop carrier that had a mossie's machine gun on it's nose -- naturally it wasn't used for transport it was used to farm unsuspecting enemies, until the complaints filtered through to the developers whereupon the gun was removed and it's armour increased.

witness too the dragon, the gal gunship...

the pattern was there, new gear is overpowered at first.

[Boone]

Originally Posted by Klockan

I didn't say that they weren't good as mmo, I said that they weren't good as games. SWG sucked as a game but it had a few interesting concepts to it, you can't judge a games quality by its featurelist. I have also never said that popularity equals quality, however they do correlate. The problem with people like you is that you can't differentiate between a game you like and a good game. You can dislike games for other reasons than it being bad, so you might prefer games built upon different concepts but that doesn't mean that the game is a pile of shit.

It is quite laughable though that you brought up the fad to dislike Justin Bieber, since you know just because "everyone" likes to hate that music doesn't make it bad either. I am not a music enthusiast so I don't really care much about every new artist like Bieber, but I know that the main reason people hate on music is not because it is bad but because it is in a genre conflicting with what they perceive to be their preferred genre. Most do that with games as well and just like in music people love hating on whats popular. "Oh look, I am special, I am one of the few who don't like WoW, CoD, BSB and Bieber!!!!", its pathetic really.

Ultima Online.

It did it for me.

[Hunterzen]

Originally Posted by Haro

And yet you were grossly over-presumptive about your opinions as well. Believe it or not, many, many people like and enjoy call of duty, Justin Bieber, or whatever else. You not liking it doesn't make something bad, just as me or anyone else liking something doesn't necessarily make it good. There are times when you can point to things in a game that you can logically connect to bad gameplay: BFRs, for example, are one thing most people would objectively agree set the game back. Other things like shooter mechanics tend to be far more subjective, since they usually are equally applied to everyone, regardless of choice, whereas you have to choose things like weapons and vehicles, and therefore inherent imbalances may show up.

If you want to give your opinions weight and make them matter to other people, the give solid, rational reasons! Use critical thinking. If you don't like something in a game, ask WHY it matters before you take it at face value.

Also, please, let's not get caught up in emotions over this. Underneath some of his vitriol, for lack of a better word, Klockan makes good points that shouldn't be ignored. Let's all step back, take a deep breath, and continue this dicussion like rational people.

Of course certain people like Justin Biber and Call of Duty like certain people loved BFR's when they were released, and I never stated my opinions as facts. I put in my 2 cents and was replied with "you people" "pathetic" "laughable" and when someone replies like that it's a waste of time to debate with someone so thick headed and hostile. "Also, please, let's not get caught up in emotions over this." Copy that click reply button under Klockan then click paste and submit comment. "You not liking it doesn't make something bad, just as me or anyone else liking something doesn't necessarily make it good." Repeat steps above. Pretty sure you're replying to wrong person. BTW "I look forward to hopefully shooting you in the face." That's a joke about PS not me being emotional, but since Klockan thinks Planetside one is a crappy game I don't see how he will enjoy Planetside 2. Besides think the playable Panda's and Pokemon system for WoW is coming out soon that seems to be more of his cup of tea.