Medics, Engineers, Light Assault - should they have limited "juice/glue/fuel"?

[Figment]

@Silent Thunder: I rather not put people on ignore and it takes quite a bit of badgering and second chances, but persistent trolls ask for it.

The reason I put Ghoest9 on ignore is because he pretends to know my "real, hidden agenda". He reads incredibly selectively for instance in the quotes above, he accused me of only encouraging restrictions. In fact, I've always favoured less arbitrary class restrictions in terms of opening up options (weaponry and tools) to all grunt classes. In return, I'd rather see these tools and abilities be suit specific gameplay advantages.

Only infils an MAXes would have furher restrictions due to their extreme designs. You can find more of my thoughts on it in a crossover ps1-PS2 inventory system thread from quite some time ago.

Edit: found thread for those interested in my most prefered alternative:
http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...ad.php?t=46088

The tool specific changes here are in line with the infiltrator scout tool, which currently starts with three barely usable scout darts. Why has this tool been arbitrarily restricted, while more impacting tools have not?

He also continuously accuses me of "deliberately undermining any usefulness of the current infil to somehow make my prefered design of the infil more likely". That's not true, he simply any accept that I find shotguns, smgs and sniper rifles OP in the hands of infils. He'd be right if he said I find them OP and also want a more ps1esque infil design, but he used the word because. He is a very biased person and it is simply too frustrating to deal with someone who can't handle someone else's arguments at face value due to inherent paranoia. Bassically, he fears that I propose to nerf his killing power in favour of objective oriented stealth gameplay and will go to any length with ad hominems to undermine my character, rather than my argument.

Trust me, it is better for the flow to have me have him on ignore. For I don't usualy ignore constant flame bait and lies without lashing back.


So if he asks if infil's cloak should ever run out, then my answer would be: with the current weapons I feel they have too much cloak (in fact... any) as is. If it is only pistols and a bit longer ttk, then no, it shouldn't. Unlike grunts, they wouldn't have killing power. However, I have always asserted infils should make trade-offs between tools and ammo and have extreme inventory management issues due to having the least room for inventory available and therefore the most competition between tools and no killing power to compensate for it. It is therefore consistent with demanding other trade-offs.

That is something Ghoest9 however would completely ignore. Especially since the cloak is a special ability more akin to the medic's healing aura special and HA shield, where the scout tool, med app, repair tool are all tools. The jetpack could be argued to be a bit of both.



Btw. On the jetpack, I wouldn't mind for instance to have it semi-limited: fuel would only be used to sustain longer periods (reaching higher levels in one jump). Imagine you could make unlimited fence high jumps, but limited wall/building high jumps. Currently I use the LA (and spawn beacons) almost constantly when not in HA and it makes me ignore the Galaxy as option for reaching high places and places inside enemy compounds instead of the infil. I also constantly use the jumppack to change attack vector on a building. It is too easy and too much of a default choice for me because of that under-restricted flight power.

[Hamma]

I can see limiting everyone but the Light Assault I don't think it falls in the same category. As someone else mentioned I can't see how this could be done without an inventory system.

[OCNSethy]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

wrong
absolutely wrong
so wrong that you could not even be honestly confused

Jets and stealth are analogous abilities(and HA shields for that matter.)
They are active abilites on recharge timers.

His posts are just requests for nerfs on people who enjoy parts of the game he doesnt.

Yeah, steady on there killa, I did the mia culpa in post 26.

[Kail]

I don't think jumpjet's should need to resupply, as no other class power requires that. If LA is too mobile, I think there are better ways to solve that. Like giving it the MAX sprint treatment (using your jumpjets consumes all the fuel, and while you can cancel early if you don't need the full height you still must wait for full fuel to come back) or making them show up on radar while jumpjets are active, etc.

I'm not convinced JJ's are a problem though, more just base design issue where having them makes it about 10x faster to reach objectives instead of 2/3.

I'd be really OK with repairing / reviving requiring resupplying; I'm not sure whether healing is quite the same, but that may make for an interesting alternative medic ability (single-target instead of AoE, but stronger). And I think it would open up secondary objectives in bases; like a generator that continually trickle-fed defenders with nanites for repair, or another for healing (if the defender is within the compound, not necessarily anywhere in the hex).

Edit: I wouldn't tie constructables to the repair tool, but I definitely wouldn't mind a counter on ammo packs before needing to terminal-resupply, like grenades.

[Mordelicius]

It's just the LA. It's stupidly OP

It's one thing that they can go to high places, snipe on infantry and drop on vehicles to blow them up. That I understand.

It's another that they can jetpack and shoot while in combat. This needs to be nerfed due to horrible hit registration and accuracy when shooting a moving object. To me, it's a superhigh bunnyhop and you know how annoying bunnyhoppers are.

They should have massive accuracy penalty while jetpacking. It's being abused in combat. They just pack high and fast to throw off shots (cheese move) and land easily and aim. They even shoot while jetpacking and can land head shots.

The higher the jetpack is, the higher the penalty is and the longer it is in place after they land.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by OCNSethy

Yeah, steady on there killa, I did the mia culpa in post 26.

See what I mean by the random character attacks and insinuating hidden agenda's OCN? I'm quite sure somewhere in the world there are people that "just requests for nerfs on people who enjoy parts of the game he doesnt".



But let's see about his actual "argument". The semantics are wrong? Oh dear Ghoest, you got me there! I'm so confused.

The only difference between the engineer's overheating of his repair tool and the Jetpack running out of fuel is that the repair tool is handheld and doesn't need to be taken out so you can't use a weapon at the same time (indeed like the cloak, shield and medic group/selfheal). Yes, all of those are tools.

Difference is in the keys you press: some use the special ability button, while others are operated by a button you have to hold rather than tap and one that normally activates a different ability (equip tool and hold left mouse for engi, hold spacebar for jumpjet, rather than "tap F"). Hence I said it's a bit of an inbetween because it is inherent but you control the time of use more directly. The difference isn't stupendously large, no. Does it matter? No. The group/selfheal thing is on the same resource use list for me if you read the opening post, because it largely performs the same role as the medical applicator: it's a tool.




Probably why I spend 50% of my time in LA, because "I don't enjoy it". I mean, it's not like I've argued the LA's mobility (and spawnbeacon's drop on top of a base) heavily interfere with the Galaxy Dropship need and the infiltrator role as saboteur. Did I argue something about attrition not being applicable on a group of medics in a firefight or an engineer who has endless ammunition to spam? Right? Naaah. I'm just out to make people grumpy over "things I don't enjoy", rather than critically look at design effects on gameplay and checking if I or others can't do too much with certain things and too little with other things.

It's called opinion and vision on improving gameplay. We don't all have to agree Ghoest, but that doesn't mean it's a subversive sneak attack on other people. Don't be such a dramaqueen.

Good one Ghoest. Good one. As usual and expected.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by Mordelicius

It's just the LA. It's stupidly OP

It's one thing that they can go to high places, snipe on infantry and drop on vehicles to blow them up. That I understand.

It's another that they can jetpack and shoot while in combat. This needs to be nerfed due to horrible hit registration and accuracy when shooting a moving object. To me, it's a superhigh bunnyhop and you know how annoying bunnyhoppers are.

They should have massive accuracy penalty while jetpacking. It's being abused in combat. They just pack high and fast to throw off shots (cheese move) and land easily and aim. They even shoot while jetpacking and can land head shots.

The higher the jetpack is, the higher the penalty is and the longer it is in place after they land.

I love that you can shoot your gun with some accuracy while jump jetting. To me it makes this activity more dynamic and interesting.

[Ghoest9]

Originally Posted by Figment

See what I mean by the random character attacks and insinuating hidden agenda's OCN? I'm quite sure somewhere in the world there are people that "just requests for nerfs on people who enjoy parts of the game he doesnt".



But let's see about his actual "argument". The semantics are wrong? Oh dear Ghoest, you got me there! I'm so confused.

The only difference between the engineer's overheating of his repair tool and the Jetpack running out of fuel is that the repair tool is handheld and doesn't need to be taken out so you can't use a weapon at the same time (indeed like the cloak, shield and medic group/selfheal). Yes, all of those are tools.

Difference is in the keys you press: some use the special ability button, while others are operated by a button you have to hold rather than tap and one that normally activates a different ability (equip tool and hold left mouse for engi, hold spacebar for jumpjet, rather than "tap F"). Hence I said it's a bit of an inbetween because it is inherent but you control the time of use more directly. The difference isn't stupendously large, no. Does it matter? No. The group/selfheal thing is on the same resource use list for me if you read the opening post, because it largely performs the same role as the medical applicator: it's a tool.




Probably why I spend 50% of my time in LA, because "I don't enjoy it". I mean, it's not like I've argued the LA's mobility (and spawnbeacon's drop on top of a base) heavily interfere with the Galaxy Dropship need and the infiltrator role as saboteur. Did I argue something about attrition not being applicable on a group of medics in a firefight or an engineer who has endless ammunition to spam? Right? Naaah. I'm just out to make people grumpy over "things I don't enjoy", rather than critically look at design effects on gameplay and checking if I or others can't do too much with certain things and too little with other things.

It's called opinion and vision on improving gameplay. We don't all have to agree Ghoest, but that doesn't mean it's a subversive sneak attack on other people. Don't be such a dramaqueen.

Good one Ghoest. Good one. As usual and expected.

Umm the part about "his posts" was aimed at you.


Either you purposefully focus your ideas on nerfing everyone who doesnt play the way you like or you completely lack self awareness and unintentionally construct game vision that ends up asking for nerfs to everything that other people enjoy.

As I have said before. Its reasonable to ask for nerfs if something is directly ruining your enjoyment your(or any group players) enjoyment.

Its unreasonable to ask for nerfs (over and over) that simply remove stuff other people enjoy in an effort make them play the way you want.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

Umm the part about "his posts" was aimed at you.

Uhm... Duh? Why do you think I'm addressing YOU?

Either you purposefully focus your ideas on nerfing everyone who doesnt play the way you like or you completely lack self awareness and unintentionally construct game vision that ends up asking for nerfs to everything that other people enjoy.

What the hell is this supposed to be? Another random accusation?

As I have said before. Its reasonable to ask for nerfs if something is directly ruining your enjoyment your(or any group players) enjoyment.

Its unreasonable to ask for nerfs (over and over) that simply remove stuff other people enjoy in an effort make them play the way you want.

Over and over and over and over and over and over.


Alright then, how many topics have I made on this issue? Go on then. Come on? Go on. Back up your statement of absolute tripe. Ghoest, stop being a liar and stop making character attacks and I still haven't seen a single argument why UNLIMITED is AN ABSOLUTE MUST and GOOD FOR GAMEPLAY.

Go on then, I'm waiting.


While you're at it, why don't you tell us why we don't have unlimited ammo? Why don't we have unlimited clips of ammo? Why do we have overheating? I'm quite sure there'd be "people who would enjoy the removal of those limitations" and you should stop making people play the game the way you want with limited ammo and all that.

Same line of argumentation. Why is it okay to limit ammo and a scouting tool, but not okay to limit other tools that have an equally large impact if not more? Go on then. Make an argument for once instead of waving "enjoyment" around as if you have the monopoly on it and don't need to examplify what it entails or how it's affected.


Convenience by itself is a horrible argument for gameplay, since inconvenience often creates opportunities for opponents and planning challenges that conveniences remove. If a convenience design removes an opportunity or disadvantage, it should be questioned if this is warranted. I've explained how it impacts others (and I always do), so your accusations based on your second line is absolute bull.

Since you only ever look at things from one side (the one exploiting any convenience), I don't expect you to really understand that this is a mere logical tweak to put it in line with other tools and uses and create a bit more challenge in what I perceive as too forgiving gameplay, particularly for large groups that suffer no attrition in these fields.


Whether you like it or not Ghoest, I'm completely entitled to that opinion. And you're completely entitled to liking the way it is, but you should stop your harassment strategy and stop acting as a total drama queen and start making some actual gameplay arguments, because the tripe you're posting now has no argumentative value.

Making players make choices is the best thing that can happen to gameplay. There's too little diversification, too little attrition and too much spam of everything right now to make the game enjoyable and feel unique.

[psijaka]

No; don't agree with your suggestion, Figment.

Each class has a key ability;

LA - jet
Engi - repair
Medic - heal
HA - shield
Infil - cloak

What you are proposing is to limit the use of this ability in the first 3; thereby making the classes less distinctive - and giving even more incentive to play HA!

I do think that the MANA turrets are a bit too disposable though; perhaps they should cost resources, and/or be on a cooldown. As it is, I just spam an AV turret, fire a few missiles, and then abandon it before a sniper or tank spots me, only to spawn another in a different spot a few seconds later to shoot off another missile or two.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by psijaka

What you are proposing is to limit the use of this ability in the first 3; thereby making the classes less distinctive - and giving even more incentive to play HA!

Eh, I'd rather not play as much HA as I do now, but the arbitrary AV restriction to HA and CONSTANT RETARDED VEHICLE SPAM are the culprit of playing so much HA. Not the class abilities like the shield, barely use the HA shield (in part because it won't activate when I press it while running... ).

I do think that the MANA turrets are a bit too disposable though; perhaps they should cost resources, and/or be on a cooldown. As it is, I just spam an AV turret, fire a few missiles, and then abandon it before a sniper or tank spots me, only to spawn another in a different spot a few seconds later to shoot off another missile or two.

That's one of the reasons I'd propose they become part of trade-off and limitations. Though I'd say the turret designs could use some work (shield design in particular - cover the head, leave the feet a bit more open) while we're at it. Plus I feel anyone on the same empire should be allowed to use a deployed turret. That actually is a rather arbitrary restriction. :/

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by Figment

Eh, I'd rather not play as much HA as I do now, but the arbitrary AV restriction to HA and CONSTANT RETARDED VEHICLE SPAM are the culprit of playing so much HA. Not the class abilities like the shield, barely use the HA shield (in part because it won't activate when I press it while running... ).

Yeah, HA the class to pull if the tanks are getting too close, as happens all too often due to CONSTANT RETARDED VEHICLE SPAM (there; felt good to say that).

What arbitrary AV restrictions are you talking about, by the way?

[Figment]

Originally Posted by psijaka

What arbitrary AV restrictions are you talking about, by the way?

HA being the only grunt class with mobile ranged anti-vehicular (bazooka/stinger type weaponry).

I don't quite understand why medics and engineers aren't allowed to give up their rifle in favour of AV. I recognise they want to make classes unique, but that's not a sufficient argument to deny them ranged AV when there's so much of it. Not even at the cost of a clear trade-off.

I mean I could see them argue that LA would get into good positions to use rockets too easily (perhaps) and sure, Engineers would ammopack resupply themselves (ammo packs and worse unlimited ammopacks are a rather weird concept anyway). But really, why force everyone into HA all the time? :/

[Rothnang]

Originally Posted by Figment

That overconvenience and snuggle the player to death attitude hurt the game enough as is and it is still driving players out of the game every day. It has made gameplay and players boring, apathic, spammy, lazy, selfish, entitled, anti-social, spoiled and incapable of creativity and improvisation, because they're never forced to make due and can always turn to the tools best suited for the job at the nearest dispenser.

Restricting repairs and heals won't fix that though, all you're doing there is take away the tools of people who actually try to keep units in the field instead of just spawning more and more, which IMO is the biggest overconvenience in the game.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

Restricting repairs and heals won't fix that though, all you're doing there is take away the tools of people who actually try to keep units in the field instead of just spawning more and more, which IMO is the biggest overconvenience in the game.

Keeping units in the field has a bigger effect on lack of attrition if the game tries to balance numbers by putting them on spawn timers and resources. (True in particular for repairs).